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03-19-2013, 04:08 PM | #1 |
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Hankook V12 vs. Michelin PSS
Hoping someone with experience on both tires can chime in. I just bought a set of Apex Arc-8 wheels (18x8.5F, 18x10R) with used V12's. The front have decent tread left but the rears should really be replaced so haven't thrown them on the car yet. For primarily street driving in warm (but potentially wet) weather only (will use stock wheels for winter) and the occasional track day, what do you think? Or feel free to suggest something different altogether... I used to have Conti DW's on my Z4MR, but hoping for something a bit more aggressive.
PSS seems like a winner, but would have to buy a set of four. V12s are a bit cheaper, but I could just buy the rears, although someone here seemed to have issues not replacing the V12s as a set? |
03-19-2013, 04:19 PM | #2 |
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V12's=good-slightly above average traction in all conditions, wear decently, great price
PSS=very good, above average traction and great wear, expensive Dunlop direzza (new ZII or star specs)- great traction, good for track days, wear fast, good price I have had experience with those three options and imo they are each great options just depends on how you intend to use them...the direzzas are the only ones i would call significantly more aggressive than the conti DW's you had, but sacrifice wear |
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03-19-2013, 04:37 PM | #4 |
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I've got V12s and initially I felt that they were really good but as I got more miles on them they got significantly worse. They are absolutely horrible in the wet, to the level where it feels unsafe driving around on rainy days.
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03-19-2013, 04:43 PM | #5 |
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I gave the V12s a run in AutoX. They were horrible. Great street tire, but just don't hold up under aggressive driving IMHO.
My car is weekend only, track, or autoX, so I went with DZIIs.
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03-19-2013, 04:52 PM | #6 | |
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By the way, this forum is amazing! Thanks for all the fast feedback! Edit: Just read some more reviews on TireRack, and others describe the same problems with the V12s--horrendous wet performance at lower tread levels. Looks like I'm trashing the current set and getting DW or PSS. Last edited by philjw; 03-19-2013 at 05:02 PM.. |
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03-19-2013, 05:06 PM | #7 |
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Drives: '08 Z4 M Coupé // '09 X5 d
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I've had V12s on for almost 3 years now. My car is a DD and has been to 2 track days.
The Good - Wear is remarkably good! No need to replace for quite awhile still. - Confident in the rain. Lived in Seattle for 1.5 years with these. - Ride is good; better than OEM Contis even on 19" - Overall good DD street tire The Bad - Soft sidewall - Low performer on track. Does not give confidence. Watch other Z4Ms pass you. Conclusion Wouldn't get V12 again. I'm saving up and going with Bridgestone RE-11 just because I want to perform better at track events. PSS is a fine choice if you don't need max perf.
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03-19-2013, 05:14 PM | #8 |
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Having run the PSS both on the street and on the track in heavy downpours, I can say that I highly recommend that tire. I haven't ever run a tire that's been as good in all conditions as the PSS, especially in the wet – it's just amazing. Very predictable tire with good grip--not Direzza level, but damn good. And these tires have a long service life, unlike extreme summer tires.
Works decently well even in fairly low temperatures, like those below 40°, which you might encounter with rain. (Many summer type tires just go completely off below 40-50 degrees.) It's not recommended that you run them in near freezing temps, but I have done it, down to 30 (not on purpose--poor planning), and as long as they have a bit of heat they're not scary. Other summer tires get scary unsafe real fast as it gets colder. I would've been in real trouble if I tried running my NT05s at those temperatures! As for track use, if you're up to intermediate level driver, you might be able to get away with these for a couple of track days a year. For more intensive track use you're going to want to tire that's up to that – the Direzza, GForce Rival, Rcomps. The downside with those more track capable street tires is that you're really going to need something else to use in the wet. |
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03-19-2013, 05:36 PM | #9 | |
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Must look for reviews
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03-19-2013, 05:42 PM | #10 | |
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I would wait for wet weather to come for the ZIIs. They changed their tread patterns to match the RS3 almost. IMO if you want something that you're going to take the car to the track. The V12s and PSS are not meant for those conditions. Both good DD tires, yes. High performance, ehhhhh |
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03-19-2013, 05:48 PM | #11 | |
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Also, while I've got everyone's attention, any thoughts on tire size? Prior owner was running 235/40s and 265/35s on the 18x8.5 and 18x10 wheels. I'm planning to replace with 245/40s and 275/35s. May also lower the car a bit, but seems like these would still be ok? Last edited by philjw; 03-19-2013 at 05:54 PM.. |
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03-19-2013, 06:36 PM | #12 | |
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RE: track, are you a really advanced driver? If not (hey, that's not me either), and if you don't push too hard, I think the PSS would be fine for the occassional light and easy fun day. As Kgolf says, PSS is not really designed for that, but I don't think you want to shell out $$$ for a dedicated set of wheels/tires for 2x days at the track a year. My advice would be to get something that is prioritized along the lines of need--and given location, that's good dry performance and very good wet performance as top priorities, track needs further down the list. Whether that's PSS or Conti DW or DWS, I'd just put wet traction up pretty high on the list. Just my 2 cents obviously. I know I sound like a cheering section for the PSS, but I really like the tire, especially in the rain. Here's another review, done by a pretty good track rat, on the PSS. Worth a look. Thanks for the forum compliments. It's a great (and unusual) group here at Zpost. Unique in fact compared to most internet "forums". Recommend getting one of these when they come out. Quite a few forum members in the Pacific NW, and here in Norcal as well. Last edited by Finnegan; 03-19-2013 at 06:42 PM.. |
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03-19-2013, 06:51 PM | #13 | |
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What's the hot tire ATM.
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03-19-2013, 06:58 PM | #14 | |
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As for the sizing issue, these are Apex Arc-8 wheels (bought them used here from MakoBimmer1) and are 18x8.5-et38 and 18x10-et25. |
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03-19-2013, 07:10 PM | #15 |
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245/40 and 275/35 should fit. Have that set-up with PSS on 8.5 ET38 and 9.5 ET22s.
Especially with the rounded sidewalls on the PSS--less likely to get inner or outer liner rub. Star Specs or a more aggressive footprint and square shouldered tire in 275s is more of a fitment challenge, in that case 235/265 might be recommended. |
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03-19-2013, 07:51 PM | #16 |
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For autocross the Rivals are putting down stupid fast times. BFG has said themselves they are not meant for wet though.
Really good thread: http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/441972 There was a Match Tour at Dixie this weekend, need to see what street tires were winning. |
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03-20-2013, 04:13 AM | #17 |
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I agree with everyone's opinion on here about the V12s. The wear is great, dry traction is awesome, all that's been said already. Wet traction wasn't the best, but having (finally!) had some skid pad training, i felt more confident in *MY* abilities in the wet, so maybe i pushed them past the traction limit.
Agreed that I won't be getting these again. I might shell out the money for PSS, but I'm hoping by that time there will be some good reviews for the RS3 (Hankook). I've still got about 50% tread left on these currently so it's still further off. I've only driven on these and KDWs (not including the stock Contis), so I don't have much of a differing opinion on tires. (if any cares the KDW were garbage. seemed to get greasier the warmer they got, but that's for a different thread)
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03-20-2013, 08:11 AM | #18 | |
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RS3s need a lot of heat to get grip. Any day below 75 you will have a hard time. As well, they are scary in the cold and wet. I had a track day at Mid-Ohio in 55 degree weather and rain and it was scary, no confidence what so ever. RS3s also require a large slip angle to achieve maximum grip. While the break-away is linear, the Dunlop ZIs (haven't driven on ZIIs) are easier to predict when you're going to lose traction, and IMO the star specs can recover faster than the RS3s when you exceed grip. The RS3s like to tramline a bit and are noisy on the highway. Awesome high performance tire, just not good for DD |
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03-20-2013, 09:12 AM | #19 | |
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Garage List E86 Z4 M [10.00]
F15 X5 xDrive35i [9.17] F10 550i (Retired) [9.17] F25 X3 xDrive35i (R ... [9.43] E82 135is (Retired) [9.53] E85 Z4 M (Retired) [9.41] E90 328i xDrive (Re ... [9.25] E86 Z4 3.0si (Retired) [8.93] |
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03-20-2013, 09:36 AM | #20 |
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One thing I've noticed with other tires compared to michelin tires, is that most other brands (dunlop, continental, BFG, etc) all seem to not perform nearly as well the older they get... Michelin tires seem to perform the same as they did brand new all the way down to the bars, and in my opinion that means more to me than having something that's quiet and grippy for the first 1/3 of the tires life, and the remaining 2/3's are traction impaired and noisy.
On another car of mine I had Continental DWS, and they were really good when they were above 50% tread, but once they started to wear down more they got downright scary in the rain, so much that I didn't drive the car in the rain. I have heard other people make similar comments about other tire brands as well.. On my Infiniti I have PS2's and they seem to be every bit as good as when they were new, which really makes me want to stick with michelins.
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03-20-2013, 10:58 AM | #22 | |
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Garage List E86 Z4 M [10.00]
F15 X5 xDrive35i [9.17] F10 550i (Retired) [9.17] F25 X3 xDrive35i (R ... [9.43] E82 135is (Retired) [9.53] E85 Z4 M (Retired) [9.41] E90 328i xDrive (Re ... [9.25] E86 Z4 3.0si (Retired) [8.93] |
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When you got down to the 50%, was the "W" still in the tread? I had my DWS on my daily for 55k and could've gone longer had it been the summer because the "D" was still there... but during cold/wet didn't drive so great. |
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