Modification Journal / 2006 M Coupe / Interlagos Blue / #207 of 1815

[marinb]

This is one of the best threads! Thanks! Subscribed.

[Endless619]

Your car looks sweet. Only thing I would change is the BBK. I am not a Stoptech fan at all having owned half a dozen BBK's with my cars over the years.

I have always used Endless calipers and Brembo. Endless does make a superior racing caliper kit for our car and don't forget about Project Mu. Both sets I would consider over Stoptech. Stoptech on the NSX is the best bang for your buck and most go that way since they are very inexpensive. Endless kits start at $6000+ just for the front kit and Project Mu is at $5000 for the fronts..... depending how fast and what type of events you do, if Stoptech isn't doing the job there are others too consider.

Otherwise sick car man!!

[ZStig]

$6k for a front brake kit? fuck that

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle

$6k for a front brake kit? fuck that

^WHS +1

[Palantirion]

Originally Posted by EndlessZ4M

Your car looks sweet. Only thing I would change is the BBK. I am not a Stoptech fan at all having owned half a dozen BBK's with my cars over the years.

I have always used Endless calipers and Brembo. Endless does make a superior racing caliper kit for our car and don't forget about Project Mu. Both sets I would consider over Stoptech. Stoptech on the NSX is the best bang for your buck and most go that way since they are very inexpensive. Endless kits start at $6000+ just for the front kit and Project Mu is at $5000 for the fronts..... depending how fast and what type of events you do, if Stoptech isn't doing the job there are others too consider.

Otherwise sick car man!!

-I am curious why I have never heard on Endless or Project Mu in BMWCCA racing circles. Are they new to the scene? StopTech and Performance Friction make the best BMW brakes that I know of, Brembo also being good. But my experience is based on what works under race conditions and what racers (notorious penny pinchers) are willing to spend their own money on vs. sponsor donations.

[krnnerdboy]

Originally Posted by Palantirion

-I am curious why I have never heard on Endless or Project Mu in BMWCCA racing circles. Are they new to the scene? StopTech and Performance Friction make the best BMW brakes that I know of, Brembo also being good. But my experience is based on what works under race conditions and what racers (notorious penny pinchers) are willing to spend their own money on vs. sponsor donations.

endless and project mu's have been around a while and have a cult like following, but mostly among the JDM crowd, but that shouldn't take away from the awesome brakes that they do make...if stoptechs are for the penny pinchers than what are the stock brake users?? turds? lol

[Endless619]

Originally Posted by Palantirion

-I am curious why I have never heard on Endless or Project Mu in BMWCCA racing circles. Are they new to the scene? StopTech and Performance Friction make the best BMW brakes that I know of, Brembo also being good. But my experience is based on what works under race conditions and what racers (notorious penny pinchers) are willing to spend their own money on vs. sponsor donations.

They have been used at JGTC 300 and JGTC 500 racing events for years. Where you have $1,000,000+ NSX's and $1,000,000+ Skyline GTR's in serious events in Japan and abroad.

They are popular amongst the Japanese car owners... I have seen them on Skylines, Porshe, NSX, S2000, 370Z, Z4M, M3, etc...

I ran Endless 6 pot kits over the years on my NSX and S2000's for local events. Pretty much overkill. Of course I had a good sponsorship cutting the kits in half and having to sign contracts stating I wouldn't sell for 12 months, yada, yada, yada...

Honestly I think the top kit for the Z4M is the Endless Race Caliper and Endless USA has those starting at $8000 actually. I also really like the Brembo larger BBK, which I run on my M3.

Here you go on the Z4M...



http://www.endlessusa.com/#!__brake-.../racing-mono-6

The Mono 6 is our best caliper, and offers all the benefits of a race
caliper including the following features: Can accept a wide range of disk
sizes & thicknesses, Titanium Piston caps, and 25 mm thick pads.

Front:

-MONO 6 Front, 355 x 32 (2 piece disk): $8,400.00
-MONO 6 Front, 370 x 32 (2 piece disk): $9,050.00
-MONO 6 Front, 380 x 34 (2 piece disk): $9,850.00

Rear:

-MONO 4R Rear, 332 x 30 (2 piece disk): $11,600.00

The kits come with everything needed to make the brakes fit on the car, and
your choice of brake pads.

All kits are special order, and the lead time is 1-2 months with a 50%
non-refundable deposit.

We currently only make the Monoblock caliper kits for the BMW Z4-M.

[marinb]

What about the AP Racing Kit? I think that's what the ALMS M3 uses.

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by marinb

What about the AP Racing Kit? I think that's what the ALMS M3 uses.

ive got the full AP racing items front and rear and its simply mind blowing.......

[onelove]

Originally Posted by EndlessZ4M

Your car looks sweet. Only thing I would change is the BBK. I am not a Stoptech fan at all having owned half a dozen BBK's with my cars over the years.

I have always used Endless calipers and Brembo. Endless does make a superior racing caliper kit for our car and don't forget about Project Mu. Both sets I would consider over Stoptech. Stoptech on the NSX is the best bang for your buck and most go that way since they are very inexpensive. Endless kits start at $6000+ just for the front kit and Project Mu is at $5000 for the fronts..... depending how fast and what type of events you do, if Stoptech isn't doing the job there are others too consider.

Otherwise sick car man!!

I've been in the business a long time, and quite honestly for a complete kit I've yet to find anything wrong with the Stoptech kits since Centric bought them out. I've been to their facilities, something I can't say for Endless (which US support consists of 1 individual importing parts from Japan). I also have yet to see one major US road race team running either of these products outside of the cup cars using Endless fluid and the occasional pad. While they make a great product, the JDM style points don't offer enough incentive for me to choose them over a Stoptech equivalent application (I've run Stoptechs on one of my Porsche and Brembos super expensive Monoblock application on the other, and now exclusively use Stoptech on pretty much every vehicle that comes out of our shop regardless of cost).

[onelove]

Originally Posted by marinb

What about the AP Racing Kit? I think that's what the ALMS M3 uses.

Great product, limited US support (Stillen was the main importer for a while and pieced together kits). They are currently owned by Brembo which is likely another reason for the limited presence as a result of duplicate applications.

In the US it's hard to argue with Stoptech / Brembo / Performance Friction. A visit to any serious road race and this is likely all you'll see.

[Endless619]

Originally Posted by onelove

I've been in the business a long time, and quite honestly for a complete kit I've yet to find anything wrong with the Stoptech kits since Centric bought them out. I've been to their facilities, something I can't say for Endless (which US support consists of 1 individual importing parts from Japan). I also have yet to see one major US road race team running either of these products outside of the cup cars using Endless fluid and the occasional pad. While they make a great product, the JDM style points don't offer enough incentive for me to choose them over a Stoptech equivalent application (I've run Stoptechs on one of my Porsche and Brembos super expensive Monoblock application on the other, and now exclusively use Stoptech on pretty much every vehicle that comes out of our shop regardless of cost).

I have been in this business since 1992 and have seen about everything and have sampled/used just about every part available for the NSX, 350z, S2000, M3, Porshe, Z4M, etc.... I even did test fitting for the Honda S2000 and Honda NSX with the Endless kits before they hit the US Shores. That allowed Endless USA to provide good solid data to people in the US wanting to use Endless BBK's for their US cars. People wanted more of a selection for their European and Japanese cars. If you look at the larger races in Japan and abroad most of the top cars use Brembo and Endless brake kits. Thats reality.

I currently am running Brembo's and love them. All I was saying is Stoptech is the best bang for your buck. Nothing wrong with that at all. You like Stoptech and thats fine. I have tested and used Brembo, Endless, and Project Mu BBKs over the decades and I like them. This isn't about who is right and wrong its about preference and experiences for me and me passing them onto other owners giving them more of a selection.

I didnt say anything was wrong with Stoptech. They are a good kit. I am just not a fan.

I will add that in all reality most people will not need any BBK. Good lines, fluid, and pads will more than suffice.... But we already know that.


Bump... Lets keeps this on the OP not about brakes. If you want more information or want to discuss further PM me. I don't want to pollute this thread anymore.

Thanks.

[Tbahr]

WOW is a great piece of work. I love it and thank for taking the time I really learned a lot. this page alone I learned that I won't be getting any "Endless Race Caliper" any day soon
and again thank you all for sharing

T.

[The HACK]

When you're buying big brake kits mostly for the way they look, then it doesn't really matter which brand you go with. Personally, when *I* shop for big brakes just for looks, I prefer Rotora since they will customize the caliper in whatever color you want. Like pink or purple. They'll also supply you with a massive, 8 piston kit which perform worse than a 4 piston setup just because you ask for it.

Not raggin' on Rotora. Their stuff is quite good. In fact, ANY big brake kit with fixed calipers and floating rotors is quite good. Heck, the STOCK brakes are quite good. Unless you're racing professionally or doing time trials (Time trialers, pardon the dig), all you need is some high temp DOT 4 fluid and some real track pads to have a great time on most courses. Even club level racers don't need more than WHATEVER fixed caliper system anyone offers. Heck, a very successful club racer ran with Rotora brakes and consistently finishes near the top overall, if I were to go by what the winning racers use I'd go with that.

HOWEVER. Those that argue that "big brake kit A is good for [insert professional race team] then it is good for me" is missing some very critical points. Take the AP Racing caliper on the M3 for example. If anyone were RICH enough to run those on their street car, or even track with it on their street car? Seriously, for street use they're actually a liability, since most of these high end race calipers do not come with any dust shields and needs to be rebuilt on a very regular basis, meaning the calipers needs to be removed from the car regularly. Also, most, if not all, of these race calipers rely on TWO TO FOUR off-the-shelf Tilton master brake cylinder set-up, so they have piston sized properly to take advantage of the Tilton's ability to generate far more pressure than your stock master cylinder is capable of. If you install any of these top end race calipers on a regular street car without swapping to a high end race master cylinder? The end result is either premature wear of the master cylinder leading to catastrophic brake failure, or simply no pedal feel because, well, trying to generate the same sort of pressure to cover a much larger piston area means you just defeated the purpose of getting a multi-piston fixed caliper.

So for those of you who are arguing (okay, discussing. I didn't see any actual illogical "arguing" being tossed about) that [Company A] makes better calipers because they're being used for [insert name of professional race series], well, I can say I've been involved in the industry for years too and frankly, ALL of these brake companies source their consumer calipers (except StopTECH and I'll explain later) from cheap Chinese sources. And this includes Brembo and probably even Endless. StopTECH does manufacture some of their own calipers, although I've heard mixed rumors about their ST-40 and ST-60 calipers. But just because they're "cheap" and "Chinese" doesn't mean their consumer calipers aren't good, it just means that they're pretty much all the same.

So my suggestion is, if you're looking for a set of big brakes to compliment the looks of your Z, or actually need the better pedal feedback and actuation because you track your Z regularly, all you really need to look for is 1) which caliper design clears your wheels, 2) which vendor gives you the biggest discount and 3) is your favorite pad commonly available in the shape of the backing plate without modification. And if you're racing in the amateur ranks, or do enough track days that you're spending more weekends on the track per year than you're spending with your family, or, you run time trials where every last 1/10th of a second matters, the 4) find a caliper with the right overall piston diameter (or even potentially 5-10% smaller) to match your factory specs, especially if you intend on using the factory master cylinder.

[onelove]

Originally Posted by The HACK

StopTECH does manufacture some of their own calipers, although I've heard mixed rumors about their ST-40 and ST-60 calipers. But just because they're "cheap" and "Chinese" doesn't mean their consumer calipers aren't good, it just means that they're pretty much all the same.

I personally visited Stoptech last year, and indeed they do produce their products here in the USA, aside from visiting the foundry down the street, I watched their kits get assembled and tested from start to finish (down to brake lines being produced in house and tested at the same time).

I do agree, for me the biggest reason for going with them was pad compound, they use a popular Porsche pad shape, which means availability in a variety of compounds.

I've also dealt with the professional series calipers, and must say that the trophy sports for the street, aside from titanium backing plates, lack of dust boots and a few minor changers are very similar. All come from the same castings.

http://blog.titanmotorsports.com/?p=2627 (reading for anyone interested, not intended as a sponsor post, but informative from a personal visit).

Now back on topic.

[FDJon]

Hello, just wanted to say thanks and I love your journal- it's a great resource for all of us. Extremely meticulous and well documented!

Only thing I have to ask is about tranny/motor mounts.. The last 2 times I tracked the car, I lost second gear- and most people agree that stiffer mounts are the cure.. I hear the neoprenes are the way to go apparently, with the poly's being too hardcore..

Have you had issues getting into gear during track use?

thanks again!

[Tbahr]

Thanks Hack just great info. When I get the car I would love to take it around a track a few times but I don't see racing in my near future. However I'd love to learn to do upgrades on a z4 as a fun hobby. so in a few months i'll be the guy on the forum "I took this apart. how do I put it back together?"

T.

[crfine88]

Originally Posted by Beedub

no probs bro, the gauges are stack professional digital stepper range, probably the most expensive gauge on the market BUT WOW the look is perfect in the interior SOO perfect.

the have a high and low warning also..... lowest value the face of the dials flash red or whatever colour you want, also press the peak button to recall your highest value, simply awesome and the wideband gauge is another thing altogther and lets me see EXACTLY what my motor is doing at any given time.

im pming you now.

Thank you for your recommendation Beedub, I picked up a handful of Stack gauges for my project. They arrived last week and I am very impressed with the quality.

Originally Posted by marinb

This is one of the best threads! Thanks! Subscribed.

Thank you

Originally Posted by EndlessZ4M

Your car looks sweet. Only thing I would change is the BBK. I am not a Stoptech fan at all having owned half a dozen BBK's with my cars over the years.

I have always used Endless calipers and Brembo. Endless does make a superior racing caliper kit for our car and don't forget about Project Mu. Both sets I would consider over Stoptech. Stoptech on the NSX is the best bang for your buck and most go that way since they are very inexpensive. Endless kits start at $6000+ just for the front kit and Project Mu is at $5000 for the fronts..... depending how fast and what type of events you do, if Stoptech isn't doing the job there are others too consider.

Otherwise sick car man!!

Besides hating my brakes Thanks for the kind words
If money were no object, I would look into these. They do look nice and I see that they are race proven. The Stoptech’s are also race proven and so far I have been 100% satisfied. Do you work for Endless, or is this just a strong recommendation based on experience.

Originally Posted by Tbahr

WOW is a great piece of work. I love it and thank for taking the time I really learned a lot. this page alone I learned that I won't be getting any "Endless Race Caliper" any day soon
and again thank you all for sharing

T.

Thank you for taking the time to read through

Originally Posted by The HACK

When you're buying big brake kits mostly for the way they look, then it doesn't really matter which brand you go with. Personally, when *I* shop for big brakes just for looks, I prefer Rotora since they will customize the caliper in whatever color you want. Like pink or purple. They'll also supply you with a massive, 8 piston kit which perform worse than a 4 piston setup just because you ask for it.

Not raggin' on Rotora. Their stuff is quite good. In fact, ANY big brake kit with fixed calipers and floating rotors is quite good. Heck, the STOCK brakes are quite good. Unless you're racing professionally or doing time trials (Time trialers, pardon the dig), all you need is some high temp DOT 4 fluid and some real track pads to have a great time on most courses. Even club level racers don't need more than WHATEVER fixed caliper system anyone offers. Heck, a very successful club racer ran with Rotora brakes and consistently finishes near the top overall, if I were to go by what the winning racers use I'd go with that.

HOWEVER. Those that argue that "big brake kit A is good for [insert professional race team] then it is good for me" is missing some very critical points. Take the AP Racing caliper on the M3 for example. If anyone were RICH enough to run those on their street car, or even track with it on their street car? Seriously, for street use they're actually a liability, since most of these high end race calipers do not come with any dust shields and needs to be rebuilt on a very regular basis, meaning the calipers needs to be removed from the car regularly. Also, most, if not all, of these race calipers rely on TWO TO FOUR off-the-shelf Tilton master brake cylinder set-up, so they have piston sized properly to take advantage of the Tilton's ability to generate far more pressure than your stock master cylinder is capable of. If you install any of these top end race calipers on a regular street car without swapping to a high end race master cylinder? The end result is either premature wear of the master cylinder leading to catastrophic brake failure, or simply no pedal feel because, well, trying to generate the same sort of pressure to cover a much larger piston area means you just defeated the purpose of getting a multi-piston fixed caliper.

So for those of you who are arguing (okay, discussing. I didn't see any actual illogical "arguing" being tossed about) that [Company A] makes better calipers because they're being used for [insert name of professional race series], well, I can say I've been involved in the industry for years too and frankly, ALL of these brake companies source their consumer calipers (except StopTECH and I'll explain later) from cheap Chinese sources. And this includes Brembo and probably even Endless. StopTECH does manufacture some of their own calipers, although I've heard mixed rumors about their ST-40 and ST-60 calipers. But just because they're "cheap" and "Chinese" doesn't mean their consumer calipers aren't good, it just means that they're pretty much all the same.

So my suggestion is, if you're looking for a set of big brakes to compliment the looks of your Z, or actually need the better pedal feedback and actuation because you track your Z regularly, all you really need to look for is 1) which caliper design clears your wheels, 2) which vendor gives you the biggest discount and 3) is your favorite pad commonly available in the shape of the backing plate without modification. And if you're racing in the amateur ranks, or do enough track days that you're spending more weekends on the track per year than you're spending with your family, or, you run time trials where every last 1/10th of a second matters, the 4) find a caliper with the right overall piston diameter (or even potentially 5-10% smaller) to match your factory specs, especially if you intend on using the factory master cylinder.

Hack,
great info as usual!

Originally Posted by FDJon

Hello, just wanted to say thanks and I love your journal- it's a great resource for all of us. Extremely meticulous and well documented!

Only thing I have to ask is about tranny/motor mounts.. The last 2 times I tracked the car, I lost second gear- and most people agree that stiffer mounts are the cure.. I hear the neoprene are the way to go apparently, with the poly's being too hardcore..

Have you had issues getting into gear during track use?

thanks again!

Thanks for the kind words. I would recommend neoprene for a good balance of performance and relatively low noise. Yes, I had the same issue and chose red poly because I don't mind the noise that most can't stand. Keep in mind I have removed my stereo because I could not hear it over my engine/exhaust

Originally Posted by Tbahr

Thanks Hack just great info. When I get the car I would love to take it around a track a few times but I don't see racing in my near future. However I'd love to learn to do upgrades on a z4 as a fun hobby. so in a few months I’ll be the guy on the forum "I took this apart. how do I put it back together?"

T.

If you pay attention to Hack's words of wisdom, you will be in good shape 99.9% of the time, and that's pretty good odds considering all the miss information you can find in forums

Cheers, and welcome. I grew up near Sac town

[crfine88]

Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle

$6k for a front brake kit? fuck that

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

^WHS +1

Originally Posted by Palantirion

-I am curious why I have never heard on Endless or Project Mu in BMWCCA racing circles. Are they new to the scene? StopTech and Performance Friction make the best BMW brakes that I know of, Brembo also being good. But my experience is based on what works under race conditions and what racers (notorious penny pinchers) are willing to spend their own money on vs. sponsor donations.

All the research I have done pointed me in the same direction. When it comes to BMW there is a great deal of hard data in support of Stoptech and Performance Friction for track use.

Originally Posted by krnnerdboy

endless and project mu's have been around a while and have a cult like following, but mostly among the JDM crowd, but that shouldn't take away from the awesome brakes that they do make...if stoptechs are for the penny pinchers than what are the stock brake users?? turds? lol

last time I checked, the stockers with new pads and fluid work pretty damn well.

Originally Posted by onelove

I personally visited Stoptech last year, and indeed they do produce their products here in the USA, aside from visiting the foundry down the street, I watched their kits get assembled and tested from start to finish (down to brake lines being produced in house and tested at the same time).

I do agree, for me the biggest reason for going with them was pad compound, they use a popular Porsche pad shape, which means availability in a variety of compounds.

I've also dealt with the professional series calipers, and must say that the trophy sports for the street, aside from titanium backing plates, lack of dust boots and a few minor changers are very similar. All come from the same castings.

http://blog.titanmotorsports.com/?p=2627 (reading for anyone interested, not intended as a sponsor post, but informative from a personal visit).

Now back on topic.

Yep, make pad replacement a good experience for sure. Now stop trying to sell Stoptech brakes in the thread, you are not a registered vendor

[Endless619]

No, I dont work for Endless... I just have had experience with them and their different caliper kits.

[crfine88]

Originally Posted by EndlessZ4M

No, I dont work for Endless... I just have had experience with them and their different caliper kits.

Cool, thanks for bringing it to the table. The prices are hard to swallow, but they do look awesome and have the track/race exp to back it up. One day I hope to add a GTR the stable. Maybe then, It will it will be time for Endless.

[onelove]

Originally Posted by crfine88

Cool, thanks for bringing it to the table. The prices are hard to swallow, but they do look awesome and have the track/race exp to back it up. One day I hope to add a GTR the stable. Maybe then, It will it will be time for Endless.

Funny you should mention the GTR, when I was at Stoptech I asked about a kit for that vehicle. they just happen to have the OEM setup on the brake dyno the prior week... the result is that the factory setup is near flawless, aside from a lighter rotor/hat upgrade and pad selection, the setup performed on par with anything on the market at the time.