Wheel Bearing Failure?

[Finnegan]

^Got it. Sent you a PM.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

Okayyy, so here's an update:

I went to Performance Technic this morning and had them diagnose my ticking noise issues. (just a quick aside, the ticking sounded like plastic zip ties being hit repeatedly against something).

So apparently I need a new LSD unit. There's significant play in my diff caused by spider gears or something
And that's probably what's causing the noise.

The shop that did your upgrade is now telling you you need a new LSD.... If there's excessive play it's more than likely from them setting up the diff improperly in the first place.

"too much play" Is also a really common MIS-diagnosis by inexperienced people as well, they think there should be no play in the diff, when in reality there is and should be a considerable amount.

FYI for you I have my money on a CV joint.

[yousefnjr]

I'm not sure if there's a spec for the backlash of the gears in the diff, but if you suspect that your shop is giving you BS you could ask them for their measurements.

[mfanatic325]

Originally Posted by O-cha

The shop that did your upgrade is now telling you you need a new LSD.... If there's excessive play it's more than likely from them setting up the diff improperly in the first place.

"too much play" Is also a really common MIS-diagnosis by inexperienced people as well, they think there should be no play in the diff, when in reality there is and should be a considerable amount.

FYI for you I have my money on a CV joint.

I will have a different shop (I call it "my" shop ) look into the CV joint and see what they think about the whole ordeal.

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

I'm not sure if there's a spec for the backlash of the gears in the diff, but if you suspect that your shop is giving you BS you could ask them for their measurements.

I appreciate the feedback guys, but as of right now, I seriously doubt this shop is feeding me BS. Because they are a very reputable shop, and ever since I was recommended there my very first time, they've quoted me extremely fair prices for everything that I've wanted to have them do for my car. I even looked closely at specific OEM parts that they used, and the prices they charged me were equal to that of Tischer, etc.
They are quite knowledgeable and I was shown the amount of play and the noise that the diff was making. They also showed me an opened-up E46 M3 diff, and showed me the exact part I needed. Furthermore, I recall them saying something about doing the rebuild free of charge, since they sympathized with my situation. When I asked them if they could source an LSD unit for me, they stated that the sources available to them are the exact same sources that I have access to (primarily the forums, etc.)
All of this leads me to think that they are genuinely trying to help me out, and not there to just make a quick buck. They've gone out of their way to serve me in the past, which is why I even bother making the 45-minute one-way trip up to their shop in the first place

But I'll keep ya'll updated if anything else comes up.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

I appreciate the feedback guys, but as of right now, I seriously doubt this shop is feeding me BS. Because they are a very reputable shop, and ever since I was recommended there my very first time, they've quoted me extremely fair prices for everything that I've wanted to have them do for my car. I even looked closely at specific OEM parts that they used, and the prices they charged me were equal to that of Tischer, etc.
They are quite knowledgeable and I was shown the amount of play and the noise that the diff was making. They also showed me an opened-up E46 M3 diff, and showed me the exact part I needed. Furthermore, I recall them saying something about doing the rebuild free of charge, since they sympathized with my situation. When I asked them if they could source an LSD unit for me, they stated that the sources available to them are the exact same sources that I have access to (primarily the forums, etc.)
All of this leads me to think that they are genuinely trying to help me out, and not there to just make a quick buck. They've gone out of their way to serve me in the past, which is why I even bother making the 45-minute one-way trip up to their shop in the first place

But I'll keep ya'll updated if anything else comes up.

Your explanation only sent up more red flags... What exactly did they "show" you. If you hold the wheels in place and rotate the drive shaft or vise versa, there WILL be considerable play, enough that telling whether it's abnormal or not is not really possible without some disassembley and careful measurements.

The biggest problem here is the explanation that a part has failed in you diff that needs replacing and is causing your problem. That pretty much doesn't happen without complete failure. If a gear breaks you know it, even if it's lost part of a tooth, you know it. There just aren't any parts that only break a little bit and cause minor symptoms. (besides say bearings and seals but that's not what we're talking here)

[mfanatic325]

Hrmmm...maybe I'll go get a second opinion then, from a differential specialist or something.

Thanks for caring O-Cha

[O-cha]

Go drive in circles and explain how/if the sound changes.

[mfanatic325]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Go drive in circles and explain how/if the sound changes.

Oh! This is an easy one
The more load there is per wheel, the more severe the ticking. And of course, the frequency of ticking is vehicle speed-dependent.

My friend mentioned wheel bearing as well today
I'm kind of back to square one until I get a professional diagnosis by a differential expert/shop.

In any case, I'm so paranoid right now about the diff that I don't want to track it

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

Oh! This is an easy one
The more load there is per wheel, the more severe the ticking. And of course, the frequency of ticking is vehicle speed-dependent.

My friend mentioned wheel bearing as well today
I'm kind of back to square one until I get a professional diagnosis by a differential expert/shop.

In any case, I'm so paranoid right now about the diff that I don't want to track it

Sorry, should have been more clear, drive in circles in both CW and CCW.

[mfanatic325]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Sorry, should have been more clear, drive in circles in both CW and CCW.

Is there anything in particular I should be listening for? Cause I don't think the direction matters, since I've heard ticking on both sides. Today, I had a buddy drive my car so that I could sit on the passenger side, and I could definitely hear it. Wheel bearing seems like a much cheaper route to try out first before jumping to the diff rebuild conclusion. Maybe I should try that first lol. Any idea what the part #s are for wheel bearings?

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Sorry, should have been more clear, drive in circles in both CW and CCW.

Lon, do as be asks. Drive in tight circles in a parking lot and note any differences in the frequently (how often) and loudness of ticks. Just do it-- he's trying to help diagnose. Help him help you.

[mfanatic325]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Lon, do as be asks. Drive in tight circles in a parking lot and note any differences in the frequently (how often) and loudness of ticks. Just do it-- he's trying to help diagnose. Help him help you.

Oh don't get me wrong, I have all intentions of heading O-Cha's advice. I'm just saying that I know that unless there's some weight on the axle (typical of higher-speed turns/sweepers), there won't be too much ticking.

[tikamak]

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

Oh don't get me wrong, I have all intentions of heading O-Cha's advice. I'm just saying that I know that unless there's some weight on the axle (typical of higher-speed turns/sweepers), there won't be too much ticking.

What you just said along with your previous statements seems like CV joints to me or wheel bearings. definitely not a diff issue.

I suggest performing the following test if O-cha agrees since he's the mechanic and i'm just an enthusiast: Go lock up the rear in some drifting exercises, if the rear locks up well, there shouldn't be any problem with the LSD. it's like o-cha stated, it will either break down and self destruct or it will lock-up like a champ.

[wss4]

I have actually been noticing the same symptoms in my car since my last track day earlier this year. 58k miles on the car. I only ever hear it at the track w/ one side heavily weighted, but it started at the same time for both sides. Differential behaves normally, and there is no noise while driving on the street.

[mfanatic325]

OMFG...turns out it was just road grime on the lug nuts. I took off the rear wheels and retorqued the lugs and the ticking seems to have gone away

So much for that whole LSD/differential scare...now I'm a bit hesitant to go back to that "reputable" shop for giving me a false diagnosis

[Finnegan]

On the plus side that's a cheap fix. I'm happy for you!

Not so good on the shop front though if this fix pans out. O-Cha's suspicions and red flags look like they were spot on.

[mfanatic325]

All the shop had to say about this was: from experience, my diff had more play than normal, and hence why they recommended a change...to contact them if I need to open the diff up in the future..

:/

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

All the shop had to say about this was: from experience, my diff had more play than normal, and hence why they recommended a change...to contact them if I need to open the diff up in the future..

:/

Uh, yeah.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Uh, yeah.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

Is there anything in particular I should be listening for? Cause I don't think the direction matters, since I've heard ticking on both sides. Today, I had a buddy drive my car so that I could sit on the passenger side, and I could definitely hear it. Wheel bearing seems like a much cheaper route to try out first before jumping to the diff rebuild conclusion. Maybe I should try that first lol. Any idea what the part #s are for wheel bearings?

You were looking for any changes in the sound, I don't tip people off to what they SHOULD be hearing because then they hear what they think they should. Wheel bearings don't tick BTW, it was never wheel bearings.

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Drive in tight circles in a parking lot and note any differences in the frequently (how often) and loudness of ticks.

Pretty much.

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

OMFG...turns out it was just road grime on the lug nuts. I took off the rear wheels and retorqued the lugs and the ticking seems to have gone away

That's good/interesting. Can you describe where the grime was a little better? (want to add it to my repertoire) Grime seems like a weird cause. Were they loose as well?

I know that loose lug nuts can produce not so much of a tick as a cracking sound (but pretty similar sounds) even when only one bolt is loose (usually when that bolt is at 6 oclock).

Originally Posted by Finnegan

On the plus side that's a cheap fix. I'm happy for you!

Not so good on the shop front though if this fix pans out. O-Cha's suspicions and red flags look like they were spot on.

Yea, hopefully it stays away, but that shop sounded like they didn't really know what was going on.

Originally Posted by mfanatic325

All the shop had to say about this was: from experience, my diff had more play than normal, and hence why they recommended a change...to contact them if I need to open the diff up in the future..

:/

I still love this, you just can't tell by hand, it's literally impossible. Plus the backlash being off would have been their fault anyway as they did the ring gear change. Some shops.... In fairness though, stuff like this can be a huge pain in the ass to diagnose and fix, what bugs me is that they went straight to something very expensive and not very likely, when you're in the "shot in the dark" stage of diagnosis, you start with the cheap stuff, unless you're trying to bend someone over.

Also FYI a busted/worn CV joint cage will allow more play "feeling" it this way. Just another reason why an "experienced" person wouldn't really make that comment.

The correct way is to remove the axles and lock the output shafts, and take a measurement off the input shaft. there's like half as much play by that point from the removal of the CV joints.


Good luck, hope the "fix" sticks.

[mfanatic325]

So I tracked the car yesterday, and immediately after the very first session, the ticking started to come back. I guess it's the heat that passes to the lugs?

But in any case, I retorqued the lugs in between sessions, and it still came back after the following session.

By the end of the day when the car was cooled down from being parked for a while, the ticking seems to be continuous. I can hear it now even just moving the car in a straight line, no particular load. With the engine off, and car in neutral, I can hear the ticks just from pushing the car forward by hand.

Going to take ALL my lugs off and clean them thoroughly to see if it really is caused by grime/friction between lugs and wheel lug holes. Will report back thereafter.

On another note, the LSD seemed to behave just as normal...still kind of pissed that the "reputable" shop tried to lead me down the path of high-costs

And as far as engine oil temp goes, I was seeing it near the 3/4 mark on the instrument cluster. And interestingly-enough, when I tracked my buddy's stock E90 M3, his oil temp gauge also read the same. As far as I can tell, both cars' gauges read the same values, with 210*F as the middle point.

[Quickid]

Grime in lugs is not a highly likely candidate for ticking noise from the rear. I know we're basically just guessing based on your observation but I still believe it's your differential. I can't say exactly what's wrong but the way you described it as sounding like zip ties getting repeatedly reminds me so much of how my diff sounded.

Good luck. Hope you figure it out soon!!!