Comparison of 07 Z4M to 07 Cayman S

[G80indy]

Originally Posted by esqu1re

Great comparison, finnegan. I had no idea that the stock brakes on Z4m were a weak point.

me neither!

[mhughett]

Originally Posted by shift@red

The z4m brakes truly are a weak point vs the cayman S along with chasis refinement/balance/etc, but I dont think the engine really is any type of drawback. It still has more low end punch than the s54, and pulls just as hard/if not harder on the top end.
The car really doesnt need an engine like the s54 because it so much better in pretty much every other facet of engineering, and by nearly overwhelming amounts. Plus the fact that its underrated at it is. A stock dyno on a cayman S will put down as much if not more than a stock s54.

If the P-car's engine is that good, why did the S54 win the european "engine of the year" in the 3.0-4.0 liter category about 5 or 6 years in a row?

[johanness]

[Nhopkins1394]

Originally Posted by johanness

I'm a noob.
What is a TiAg Z4?

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by esqu1re

Great comparison, finnegan. I had no idea that the stock brakes on Z4m were a weak point.

Originally Posted by 330indy

me neither!

Hold on guys, it's relative to the Cayman S which has multi-pot brakes. The feel piece (Cayman has a progressive feel which I personally prefer) is just that--personal preference!

For use on the street there's no way I'd consider the Z4M's brakes anything but excellent. (They're off the e46 M3 Competition Package after all.) And this isn't my personal experience, but running on the track many (not all) have found they need improvements in terms of cooling and heat capacity. (I'm getting that from reading other's experiences on this site--not personal experience, so keep that in mind.)

The Cayman has some halfway decent cooling, but you'll need GT3 cooling ducts if you're an advanced level DE driver (those, unlike most Porsche things, are cheap--under 50 bucks I think). And while there's debate over whether it helps or not, if you have an American Z4M and look you'll see the vents through to the front wheels are about 3/4 blocked off (search on this one). That "blockage" isn't there outside of the US. While this "vent" doesn't direct air to the brakes per se, it sure can't hurt to have more air flowing.... (Or at least that's one train on though on the "blockage".)

Truth be told neither car is set up as a hardcore "racing" or track machine and both need some work if that's your goal. For most cars that never see a track the stock brake set-up is much better than "adequate" and stopping distances and fade in most conditions we'll face is really quite good.

[jragan]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

For use on the street there's no way I'd consider the Z4M's brakes anything but excellent. (They're off the e46 M3 Competition Package after all.) And this isn't my personal experience, but running on the track many (not all) have found they need improvements in terms of cooling and heat capacity. (I'm getting that from reading other's experiences on this site--not personal experience, so keep that in mind.)

The Cayman has some halfway decent cooling, but you'll need GT3 cooling ducts if you're an advanced level DE driver (those, unlike most Porsche things, are cheap--under 50 bucks I think). And while there's debate over whether it helps or not, if you have an American Z4M and look you'll see the vents through to the front wheels are about 3/4 blocked off (search on this one). That "blockage" isn't there outside of the US. While this "vent" doesn't direct air to the brakes per se, it sure can't hurt to have more air flowing.... (Or at least that's one train on though on the "blockage".)

Truth be told neither car is set up as a hardcore "racing" or track machine and both need some work if that's your goal. For most cars that never see a track the stock brake set-up is much better than "adequate" and stopping distances and fade in most conditions we'll face is really quite good.

Interesting, when I still had Ruby, I was in the advanced groups for PCA, BMWCCA, and the other local track/DE clubs. I was always one of the faster on the track, and I ran with stock brake hardware plus a slightly more agressive pad than stock and high temp fluid. I never ran out of brakes and I never opened up my front air-dam ducting.

[JCz04Bimmer]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

For use on the street there's no way I'd consider the Z4M's brakes anything but excellent. (They're off the e46 M3 Competition Package after all.) And this isn't my personal experience, but running on the track many (not all) have found they need improvements in terms of cooling and heat capacity. (I'm getting that from reading other's experiences on this site--not personal experience, so keep that in mind.)

My only criticism of the Z4M's brakes on track (and I have approaching 30 days now in this car) is that they're not as durable as I'd like them to be. The piston dust boots deteriorate with extreme heat and the rubber guide pin bushings are dicey when they're hot as well. But in terms of on-track stopping power, with a set of HT10's, the right fluid and stainless steel lines, I have never found them to be lacking in any way whatsoever. Single pistons, yeah, do tend to do some wonky stuff with pad wear but I've found it to be very minor if detectable at all.

Originally Posted by Finnegan

And while there's debate over whether it helps or not, if you have an American Z4M and look you'll see the vents through to the front wheels are about 3/4 blocked off (search on this one). That "blockage" isn't there outside of the US. While this "vent" doesn't direct air to the brakes per se, it sure can't hurt to have more air flowing.... (Or at least that's one train on though on the "blockage".)

When the car was up on stands for the first time after getting the car, I immediately noticed those and cut the blocking plates off with a razor. To be honest, I think they're there to keep rocks and misc road grime away from we sensitive Amerrrricans. When I cut the plates open, I did notice the car kicked up dirt a bit more. But, seriously, who cares about that?

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Truth be told neither car is set up as a hardcore "racing" or track machine and both need some work if that's your goal. For most cars that never see a track the stock brake set-up is much better than "adequate" and stopping distances and fade in most conditions we'll face is really quite good.

[Finnegan]

Jeremy and JCz04Bimmer--thanks for contributing your real-life feedback re: Z4M brakes at the track.

I didn't do an extensive meta-analysis of thread/posts on the topic of Z4M track brake usage--just went off memory and so that might have be skewed. Correction re: folk's experience on the track noted.

It looks like an academic exercise re: single vs. multi-pot and the rest comes down to personal preference (feel).

As I said, both cars need some measures taken if you plan to track them often and exceed the capacities of the stock setup (e.g. more camber, wider tires, etc. all require supporting various levels of supporting mods--e.g. lines, fluid, pads, oiling solutions, etc.).

[JCz04Bimmer]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

It looks like an academic exercise re: single vs. multi-pot and the rest comes down to personal preference (feel).

As I said, both cars need some measures taken if you plan to track them often and exceed the capacities of the stock setup (e.g. more camber, wider tires, etc. all require supporting various levels of supporting mods--e.g. lines, fluid, pads, oiling solutions, etc.).

Right on! And, really, the major deciding factor when I was presented with the chance to get either the Z4M or the Cayman S was that I knew I could get right to work on many of the familiar systems on the BMW whereas I'd be starting from square one with the Porsche. Add that to the fact that Porsches are, by default, more expensive to own and modify for track duty, and my decision was made.

[skim]

lol cute dog.. but won't you have more space for your dog if you unhook the privacy net thing in the z4 coupe, tho we only have 1 trunk vs 1.5 for cayman

[Endless619]

Originally Posted by 03BeastCharmer

I assume you're talking well over $60K for a Ferrari or even a stock R8. $60K isn't what it used to be, there are non-M 3 series that cost that much new. (Yes, I know you're talking used Ferrari/Audi).

OP - Nice comparison. Camber does wonders for the coupe and the handling. I just got my camber plates on, so we'll see what a lot of camber does for me at this weekends autox event

Yes $60,000-$200,000 range on used or new. I mean't in general if I am going to spend more than that, then go all out and get what you really want..

Non-M 3 coupes should be in the $30,000-$40,000 range. Sorry but they are just not worth over $45,000. I won't pay that much.

Your average driver which a good 90% of us fall into can get away with a great set of brake pads and fluid and it will be more than enough for a track day with OEM Z4M brakes. That is the case with the Acura NSX, Honda S2000, E46 M3, etc etc.

I had Endless 6 pots on my NSX and S2000. I ran Brembos on my 350z and E46 M3 and have to say it was overkill. They looked great but overkill for street/twisties and SCCA.

[r4gs]

i've only been to the track once since purchasing my m coupe, and that being my first exposure to driving on a proper road track, i did notice some brake fade towards the end of each 22 minute session. however, i'm more than satisfied with the z4m's brakes on the streets, and have not experienced any with better feel and stopping power for everyday use. granted, i've definitely never driven a porsche before and can't comment on a comparison!

[epbrown]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Because IEOTY is the end all be all of engines.

Compared to your opinion, fan-boy? Yeah, it sort of is.

That aside, iirc Porsche and Ferrari can't win because neither produces enough volume to qualify. You don't see any high-end sports cars winning IEOTY.

[Finnegan]

Missed a few responses...below.

Originally Posted by EndlessZ4M

I actually disagree with some of you. I had a chance to test drive the Cayman and wasn't really impressed. I opted for the Z4M over the Porsche. Hell I would take my modified 02 NSX over the Porsche. My old S2000 (had $25,000 in proven upgrades at the time) would have given it all it could handle, let alone my NSX, E46 M3, and Z4M. If I am going to spend over $60,000 on a car it would be nothing less than a Ferrari or modified Audi R8.

I am not bashing or putting down the Cayman, it's just not for me or my tastes or performance preference. It's still a great car.

Hey, no worries! It's a car, and we all have opinions!

For the record I didn't pay anywhere near 60K (bought it used with 14K miles). Out of interest, did you test drive the Cayman or Cayman S? The S has a lot more power, different suspension, different brakes....just curious as the Cayman has good balance but the S is a different animal IMO.

Originally Posted by 03BeastCharmer

I assume you're talking well over $60K for a Ferrari or even a stock R8. $60K isn't what it used to be, there are non-M 3 series that cost that much new. (Yes, I know you're talking used Ferrari/Audi).

OP - Nice comparison. Camber does wonders for the coupe and the handling. I just got my camber plates on, so we'll see what a lot of camber does for me at this weekends autox event

What are you planning to use as alignment settings or should I wait and look over in the Track/Auto-X next weekend? Good luck and have fun!

Originally Posted by RBull

Nice write up. You've got both of the cars I wanted to have. I only have one of them.

Thanks! There's always time to add to the collection in upcoming years....

Originally Posted by r4gs

i've only been to the track once since purchasing my m coupe, and that being my first exposure to driving on a proper road track, i did notice some brake fade towards the end of each 22 minute session. however, i'm more than satisfied with the z4m's brakes on the streets, and have not experienced any with better feel and stopping power for everyday use. granted, i've definitely never driven a porsche before and can't comment on a comparison!

With racing type fluid with a higher boiling point and better pads I don't think that should happen. Were you running a full stock set-up? If so, search as the next time you go to the track you may want to change those items. Stock pads and fluid really aren't up to the task--lots of good info on that here if you search.

Originally Posted by Huz-Z

I was washing the Z yesterday afternoon when a black Cayman buzzed past on my street. Nice looking car and it did sound nice as it went by. I sure wouldn't bash the guy's car; I'm sure its a fine machine in all respects, as Finnegan has demonstrated.

But for the time being, I'm more than happy with my Z4. ANd I do like being able to drop the top, which is something you can't do in a Cayman.

Cheers!

Hey, what could possibly be better than being happy with the car you have? I really enjoy my Cayman, but my wife (Skelekitty) hasn't driven it yet! I've offered her the keys...what does that say? Well, I think it says she bought the right car the first time (unlike me)!

The best thing in the world is for a person to be happy with what they have and truly enjoy it. So, that makes you a lucky guy!

[RBull]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Thanks! There's always time to add to the collection in upcoming years....

Lol, not likely since my wife doesn't give a hoot about cars..and can't drive a standard. I'll keep working on it though.

We're also planning for retirement soon so I've got to get used to living with a little less.

[Huz-Z]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Missed a few responses...below.


Hey, what could possibly be better than being happy with the car you have? I really enjoy my Cayman, but my wife (Skelekitty) hasn't driven it yet! I've offered her the keys...what does that say? Well, I think it says she bought the right car the first time (unlike me)!

The best thing in the world is for a person to be happy with what they have and truly enjoy it. So, that makes you a lucky guy!

I could not agree more!!!

And consider. If you parked your Cayman S, a Z4 coupe, a Z4 roadster, a 911 and a Boxster S at a local mall where folks could look at them, I think most folks passing by would think that they were just all very cool cars indeed. If you offered someone the keys to any one of those cars, they would be absolutely thrilled. So, while we can discuss the relative merits of those cars from a performance perspective, to the average person, these cars are unique and highly desirable gems.

Cheers!

[esqu1re]

Originally Posted by r4gs

i've only been to the track once since purchasing my m coupe, and that being my first exposure to driving on a proper road track, i did notice some brake fade towards the end of each 22 minute session. however, i'm more than satisfied with the z4m's brakes on the streets, and have not experienced any with better feel and stopping power for everyday use. granted, i've definitely never driven a porsche before and can't comment on a comparison!

That's reassuring. I'm planning on a few sessions next year and was wondering how they would hold at around 20 minutes. Looks like ss lines and more track oriented pads wouldn't hurt.

[r4gs]

^maybe a bit more detail on the track i did my hpde at - 1.8 mile road course with 13 turns, fastest straightway follows downhill up to 110mph indicated in 3rd. i'd say i had to use the brakes quite substantially at least six times each lap, averaging about 15 laps per session. i would start noticing brake fade (i.e. having to depress the pedal more fully and feeling on the edge of abs kicking in + minor vibrations) only towards the end of each session, maybe the last three laps or so. in between sessions i had about 45 minutes of cool down, for a total of four sessions for the day. hopefully this gives some better indication, albeit a subjective one, per my experiences with how the stock brakes with stock contis handled on track with zero mods. granted, the stock contis probably started to fade in grip towards the end of each session as well.

also, my m coupe is stock other than cdv delete performance mods wise.

[jragan]

Originally Posted by r4gs

^maybe a bit more detail on the track i did my hpde at - 1.8 mile road course with 13 turns, fastest straightway follows downhill up to 110mph indicated in 3rd. i'd say i had to use the brakes quite substantially at least six times each lap, averaging about 15 laps per session. i would start noticing brake fade (i.e. having to depress the pedal more fully and feeling on the edge of abs kicking in + minor vibrations) only towards the end of each session, maybe the last three laps or so. in between sessions i had about 45 minutes of cool down, for a total of four sessions for the day. hopefully this gives some better indication, albeit a subjective one, per my experiences with how the stock brakes with stock contis handled on track with zero mods. granted, the stock contis probably started to fade in grip towards the end of each session as well.

also, my m coupe is stock other than cdv delete performance mods wise.

It's worth mentioning that as a new driver you're going to be using the brakes a lot more than they need to be. You also didn't mention whether you had DSC on or not -- leaving it on will over-work the brake system under track use.

[esqu1re]

Originally Posted by jragan

It's worth mentioning that as a new driver you're going to be using the brakes a lot more than they need to be. You also didn't mention whether you had DSC on or not -- leaving it on will over-work the brake system under track use.

I'm assuming if it was his first HPDE event, he probably left it on. I think I will next year... =)

[crfine88]

Excellent write-up!

You answered a great deal of the questions I had. I like the dog seat too
Sounds like in your household no matter wich keys you grab, you are in for a real treat.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by crfine88

Excellent write-up!

You answered a great deal of the questions I had. I like the dog seat too
Sounds like in your household no matter wich keys you grab, you are in for a real treat.

Thanks! And yes, it's kind of a dream come true. I never imagined in my wildest dreams 20 years ago that I'd have anything like these to choose from....I was driving a 1982 Honda Civic Dx and Skelekitty was driving a 1990 Honda Civic Dx.