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      08-26-2010, 04:35 PM   #45
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@Crimson92, agreed. They should have spent a little more time developing the M Z4.

@r4gs, It is possible to cut some fat from the Z4 as I mentioned on my earlier post. But after the wheels (easly 25lb) and seats (80lbs), it gets harder to loose weight.

The hatch is quite heavy, also the exhaust and the battery are good areas to cut weight. But then all these are at the rear of the car, so you're begining to change the weight distribution of the car. I don't know where you can loose weight at the front of the car (empty windshield washer tank?).
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      08-26-2010, 04:37 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson92 View Post
On to the M coupe/roady, i wish bmw had spend a little more time developing it, insteading of pulling from the m3 parts bin.
Actually, thanks to those existing parts choices, the E85 and E86 ///Ms got some world class components:
Brakes from the E46 ///M3 CSL
Front Suspension from the E36 ///M3

I wish we could have gotten the E46 ///M3 transmission options!
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      08-26-2010, 05:09 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
To be fair the ex-f1 designers didn't get involved with the RLR ALMS m3's until they were already competing and BMW wanted to send some similar cars to le mans & nring 24 hours, and eventually based DTM cars off the RLR M3's.
Very true. Though I do know they've been working quite extensively on the traction control systems on those E92's and they're in play right now. It's funny because ze Germans keep telling the drivers that they can hit the apex and floor it and all will be well but, as we all know, that isn't always true and it's getting there that's the tricky part!

That said, I think the take away is that BMW is able to throw the M3, a fairly pedestrian sports car compared to the F430 etc, and compete quite impressively.
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      08-26-2010, 05:10 PM   #48
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why do people keep thinking a CF roof would drop any significant amount of weight? the roof on a z4 is about 5 sq ft of thin steel, a CF roof would save maybe 5 lbs.

My only complaints with the car are the grinding synchro's and the M's probably should've come standard with aero side skirts... beyond that I really don't have any complaints, the car weighs what it weighs. In today's market it is still one of the lighter cars with similar power, and if you feel the car needs less weight then mod it.
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      08-26-2010, 05:17 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
why do people keep thinking a CF roof would drop any significant amount of weight? the roof on a z4 is about 5 sq ft of thin steel, a CF roof would save maybe 5 lbs.


I would sooner look at the ridiculously overbuilt bulkhead behind our seats. Did someone say Sawzall!?
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      08-26-2010, 06:37 PM   #50
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The cf roof is provides a lower center of gravity, I would paint it anyway, not into the way cf looks.
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      08-26-2010, 07:08 PM   #51
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I've never seen such an active post on zpost!

And I can't believe no one has mentioned that BMW 's curb weight is a wet weight vs other manufacturers dry weight. There is TONS OF INFO WHERE PEOPLE HAVE WEIGHED IN AT 31** on an Mcoupe. The Mcoupe could have been lighter but the car was a roady since inception, which is also why it is the only vert (other than the boxster) to be lighter than its coupe counterpart. The M roadster is approximately 30+ lbs lighter according to BMWNA.
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      08-26-2010, 07:09 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
The cf roof is provides a lower center of gravity, I would paint it anyway, not into the way cf looks.
Not if it doesn't weigh significantly less.

Even on the m3 it's an aesthetic feature. It doesn't matter if 18 pounds is 12 feet above the center of gravity in a 3700lb car, it won't make any noticable difference.

BTW I did a quick calculation with some rough estimates and if the steel roof was 33lbs (1% of the cars total weight) and a CF was theoretically 0 lbs. It still only lowers the CG of the car about the height of a quarter laying down (~.05-.07").
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      08-26-2010, 07:43 PM   #53
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Good thread. It's interesting that no matter what car we seem to drive these days there is unanimous agreement cars should weigh less. Compared to the Boxster Spyder yes, this car weighs "too much". The 'Vette is in current form is pretty much the same as the Z4M. Compared to the E9x 3 series this thing is light. Yes, a fatter car with more power will keep up (someone mentioned a 335), but you can't fight the laws of physics, and a heavier car just isn't as nimble as a light car.

The issue comes down to cost and regulation. To really cut back on weight in most cases you've got to use more costly materials (aluminum and/or Carbon Fiber). In some cases, like front fenders, you can go plastic which is cheap. But the fact is that regulations and safetly laws dictate a lot of the weight in cars these days as well--and that's not always a bad thing as we unfortunatelly saw this week with mousitch--this tough little car protected him well. And I'll take a few extra pounds if it means it's going to possibly save my ass. The higher cost material route just puts the car out of a reasonable price range in many instances.

That said, would I like to see 200 or 300 pounds off this car? You bet!

You can probably cut out 100-200 lbs with mods or decontenting. Things that could cut weight: replace stock seats, TI exhaust (is there one avaiable?), lightweight battery, A/C delete, plastic front fenders (like the E9x M3--but I doubt such a thing exists), JC04's extreme surgery option, lighter wheels, remove stereo and speakers. But the time you're done you'll have pretty much a track-only car that's not going to be much fun for anything else, so that leaves only a few small (and somewhat costly options) unless you want to go all hard-core on the car (which is going to be more costly).
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      08-26-2010, 08:32 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
You can probably cut out 100-200 lbs with mods or decontenting. Things that could cut weight: replace stock seats, TI exhaust (is there one avaiable?), lightweight battery, A/C delete, plastic front fenders (like the E9x M3--but I doubt such a thing exists), JC04's extreme surgery option, lighter wheels, remove stereo and speakers. But the time you're done you'll have pretty much a track-only car that's not going to be much fun for anything else, so that leaves only a few small (and somewhat costly options) unless you want to go all hard-core on the car (which is going to be more costly).
Very good points. Weight is the enemy but to gain substantial improvements in car balance would possibly mean significant compromises to creature comforts and build quality. I also drive a feather weight Lotus Elise, fantastic handling, almost no body roll/squat/dive when compared to the Z4M.

That being said, I think the Z4M strikes a perfect balance between outright performance and day-to-day drivability. The Lotus is light but that fibre composite body leaves much to be desired, not to mention non-existent NVH and poor build quality (for its price range).

Yes, a 200lbs reduction would be very nice and bring the Z4M closer to Boxster/Cayman levels but the Z4M is not a fat car by any means (compared to current offerings). Think the main culprit here is the iron block engine which is a gem and well worth the compromise. I could be wrong but I think the 3.0si weighs approx 100lbs less?
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      08-26-2010, 09:00 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chanzs View Post
Think the main culprit here is the iron block engine which is a gem and well worth the compromise. I could be wrong but I think the 3.0si weighs approx 100lbs less?
The n52 weighs 354lbs. About 120lbs lighter then the s54.
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      08-26-2010, 09:21 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCz04Bimmer View Post


I would sooner look at the ridiculously overbuilt bulkhead behind our seats. Did someone say Sawzall!?
I did just that, I never really weighed it all to see how much weight we removed but It was quite heavy, I imagine at least 50 lbs.
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      08-26-2010, 09:36 PM   #57
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Exhaust, wheels, and battery changes could get you 150 lbs of relief. In my book that is significant weight loss.
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      08-26-2010, 10:49 PM   #58
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How much does the stock battery weigh? I've read so much about aftermarket batteries being generally unreliable (unless you charge it every x days/weeks) that I've disregarded it.
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      08-26-2010, 11:02 PM   #59
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i'm summarily putting it this way - the m coupe was fashioned by m gmbh engineers, whom i'm sure have a tremendous combined wealth of experience and expertise between them in making the various design directions/decisions culminating in the final product. correspondingly, in my opinion the m coupe is principally targeted towards the discerning enthusiast who wants something unique + classy, something with m-worthy performance + distinction and yet something which is livable on a daily basis.

as much as i do feel the m's would do well with a healthy diet, i'm spoilt for the creature comforts that abound and distinguish this car from the more focused competitors, like a lotus exige (hella lightweight), for example. not to mention upsetting the near perfect weight balance + distribution.
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      08-26-2010, 11:09 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shereef_Osman View Post
I did just that, I never really weighed it all to see how much weight we removed but It was quite heavy, I imagine at least 50 lbs.
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      08-26-2010, 11:13 PM   #61
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The heaviest thing in the car besides the engine is probably the driver.
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      08-27-2010, 01:04 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
But the fact is that regulations and safetly laws dictate a lot of the weight in cars these days as well--and that's not always a bad thing as we unfortunatelly saw this week with mousitch--this tough little car protected him well. And I'll take a few extra pounds if it means it's going to possibly save my ass.
I'm with you on this, but how do Porsche keep the weight pretty much constant among generations? I bet their cars are getting safer too in every generation. Maybe BMW is putting way too much creature comfort in the M cars? M3 Coupe is 130lb heavier than 335is Coupe... why is that?
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      08-27-2010, 01:48 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
I'm with you on this, but how do Porsche keep the weight pretty much constant among generations? I bet their cars are getting safer too in every generation. Maybe BMW is putting way too much creature comfort in the M cars? M3 Coupe is 130lb heavier than 335is Coupe... why is that?
Good question. Answers, if I recall correctly for the 335is vs. M3: massively heavy exhaust to tame the S65's tendency to drone (I'm replacing mine with a full Akrapovic, saves 50 pounds); different seats (more bolstering, as they're heavier as well); additional sub-frame rigidity; other pieces that add weight (and rigidity); heavier duty "M stuff"; additional sound-deadening; oil and transmission coolers; and I believe larger rotors as well.

I agree Porsche has kept the weight down, but it's still creeping up over there generation to generation, just not at the pace of other cars. I looked at that about a year ago and noted that while moving more slowly, weight had really gone up. So I just looked again tonight: a 911SC circa 1983 weighed ~2,500 lbs; the 993 weighed in at just over 3,000 pounds, and the 997 S weighed in 3,100 pounds. Safety equipment makes up a lot of that weight, and Porsche does tend to focus on performance not comfort. But the reason Porsche hasn't increased at the same rate as other manufacturers is, as Jeremy Clarkson puts it, "Porsche has the laziest design team in the world". They haven't increased the size of the 911 variants (look at a 911 SC vs. a 997), unlike BMW who keeps going bigger and more bloated.

I saw an E34 M5 last weekend at EuroSunday. It was actually smaller than my E92 M3! The E92 is bigger than the E46. At the rate we're going the 3er is going to look like a 7 series soon. You'll need a license to drive a truck for the series of the future. I can hear it now "excuse me sir, you have to put money in two meters for that 7 series since it takes up two parking spaces, so you're getting a parking ticket."

So of course these cars weigh more (safety improvements notwithstanding). It's the size of the vehicle BMW is putting out. IMO this reflects the change in people who are growing larger as well, and it's a side effect of the popularity of the land barge sized SUVs which have accutomed the public to having a living room on wheels.

The next generation of BMWs will, I'm sure, prove to be even bigger and more bloated than this one. They'll produce more power, but a 4,000 - 4,5000 pound car, no matter how much power and suspension tricks it has, is just not going to be as much fun as a 3,200 pound car due to the laws of physics.

And that's what makes the Z4M and Z4 (and Z3s) so special. They're light, nimble, and have just enough "luxury" and comfort to be livable while at the same time delivering great performance. It's why the Z4M is a keeper in my book.

Last edited by Finnegan; 08-27-2010 at 01:59 AM..
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      08-27-2010, 07:48 AM   #64
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Perhaps you could drop the M's starting motor and replace it with a kick start like on my old Yamaha RD 400 street racer.

Now, I don't know if you could pop a wheelie like the RD's were famous for......





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      08-27-2010, 09:19 AM   #65
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Just to add more to the Porsche Weight Gain discussion... The 2012 models are all going the E9*M3 route: http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...aspx?AR=251868

...And reposted from Planet-9:
[The 911] will evolve into a more luxurious 2+0 GT and move "upmarket"

The Cayman/Boxster will also move upmarket as a new 4 cylinder entry level
roadster will be developed with VAG (the '356")

The new cars will be bigger, more powerful, more economical, more expensive and not look much different than the current cars.
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      08-27-2010, 10:08 AM   #66
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