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      06-17-2012, 10:59 AM   #1
3002 tii
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Correcting Spin on Track

I know the saying "during a spin both feet in" but that's really when you're beyond the point of correction. Leading up to that point, what should I be doing with my hands?

The one time my back side came loose was at Summit, last turn before leading into the straights. It was a right hander, slight decline, late apex. Back side was sliding a little to the left and I was able to correct it. Instructor complimented me on my ability to control but honestly the actions were more intuitive from my auto-x days. If you ask me now I can't tell you exactly which way I turned the wheel and how many degrees, etc. But I would like to know consciously what I should be doing.

I do believe in that incident I let off throttle and turned slightly to the left, got her straight and went back on gas. However reading other threads, I actually see different suggestions on which way I should be steering...
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      06-17-2012, 11:09 AM   #2
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Oversteer:

When the rear tires slip out, you want to turn into the slide. Lift off throttle

Pause

Correct.

So, if you're going into a left hander, and the car slips out...turn RIGHT. If you continue to left you'll loop the car. There is no correct amount of angle, but you want the tires to still maintain direction of where you want to go. Once you feel the rear tires get grip again be ready to correct the steering angle to avoid going way right. Makes sense?

Understeer:

SLOWLY lift off throttle and let the tires regain grip. Releasing quickly will cause you to snap oversteer.
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      06-17-2012, 12:19 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Oversteer:

When the rear tires slip out, you want to turn into the slide. Lift off throttle

.
If you lift on oversteer rear slide you will transfer weight forward and loose even more rear grip.

Here's a basic write up on the topic.
http://www.drivingfast.net/car-contr...m#.T94C12t5mSM
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      06-17-2012, 02:07 PM   #4
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I am going to side with inTgr8r here. Don't lift. I would say more gas (slightly)to transfer weight to the rear while steering into it. It gets tricky depending on how sideways you are, banked, cambered, or whether you are going towards a wall. If its the latter and you really sideways, I would just put 2 feet in. I have thought about it many times, I have been lucky enough for the subconscious to kick in when the time is right. You can also see if your local track has any events for car control, where you purposefully put the car sideways. A lot different learning than your normal track event.
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      06-17-2012, 11:20 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubbedown View Post
I know the saying "during a spin both feet in" but that's really when you're beyond the point of correction. Leading up to that point, what should I be doing with my hands?

The one time my back side came loose was at Summit, last turn before leading into the straights. It was a right hander, slight decline, late apex. Back side was sliding a little to the left and I was able to correct it. Instructor complimented me on my ability to control but honestly the actions were more intuitive from my auto-x days. If you ask me now I can't tell you exactly which way I turned the wheel and how many degrees, etc. But I would like to know consciously what I should be doing.

I do believe in that incident I let off throttle and turned slightly to the left, got her straight and went back on gas. However reading other threads, I actually see different suggestions on which way I should be steering...
I explain correcting for oversteer to my son the same way I've been taught - point your wheels in the direction you want to go. This translates into the opposite lock you describe, but is much easier to think of instead of being confused by left, right, etc.

Onset of understeer takes a different leap of faith that unwinding the wheel a bit will get your front grip back.

Put in an autocross or two and drive at the edge to reinforce this in a safe environment. It's served you well.
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      06-17-2012, 11:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kklin View Post
I explain correcting for oversteer to my son the same way I've been taught - point your wheels in the direction you want to go. This translates into the opposite lock you describe, but is much easier to think of instead of being confused by left, right, etc.

Onset of understeer takes a different leap of faith that unwinding the wheel a bit will get your front grip back.

Put in an autocross or two and drive at the edge to reinforce this in a safe environment. It's served you well.
Yep, that's what I've been told, look where you want to go, your hands will follow. Again, the feeling seems intuitive but for some reason I wasn't able to explicitly tell myself 'what to do' with absolute certainty. Good to know on both levels.

Also, the comment regarding NOT lifting is very helpful as well.
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      06-17-2012, 11:28 PM   #7
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Yea, not lifting makes sense. Sorry bout that.

When I did the BMW Performance M School, all we did was blip the throttle to kick the car out, and corrected from there. After that it WAS maintenance throttle when we where trying to drift the car out.

Eyes are key, I can't tell you how many times I looped the car due to my looking at the wrong place. 500hp + skid pad shows mistakes easily.
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      06-17-2012, 11:32 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Eyes are key, I can't tell you how many times I looped the car due to my looking at the wrong place. 500hp + skid pad shows mistakes easily.
Agreed, object fixation - learned the hard way on my bike, first and only time I ever laid it down. Kept focusing on the area I wanted to avoid thinking that was the more prudent thing to do. Before I knew it, I was on that rough patch and had a tank slapper.
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      06-18-2012, 08:36 AM   #9
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Just to clarify...you only do 2 feet in when you completely lose control of the car and cannot save it
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      06-18-2012, 08:41 AM   #10
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^ Yes & try to go in as straight as possible.
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      06-18-2012, 02:47 PM   #11
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I was gonna suggest more autocross and driving like a maniac like me, plenty of counter-steer practice. I don't have high speed sideways experience yet, but it must be similar. It just becomes intuitive. I used to actually let go of the steering wheel and let it auto-correct and unwind while manipulating the throttle, but I've been told that its a bad idea and I THINK I only do that now when its REALLY sideways and my hands can't keep up. I'm gonna put together a video montage soon.
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      06-18-2012, 02:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle View Post
I was gonna suggest more autocross and driving like a maniac like me, plenty of counter-steer practice. I don't have high speed sideways experience yet, but it must be similar. It just becomes intuitive. I used to actually let go of the steering wheel and let it auto-correct and unwind while manipulating the throttle, but I've been told that its a bad idea and I THINK I only do that now when its REALLY sideways and my hands can't keep up. I'm gonna put together a video montage soon.
It's a shame NJMP has a stupid no 'vert rule... it probably is the closest track between us. I'll be there this weekend.
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      06-18-2012, 03:07 PM   #13
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I pulled a Lebron move, and took my talents to South Beach for now. Hope this local track is more friendly!
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      06-18-2012, 03:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle View Post
I pulled a Lebron move, and took my talents to South Beach for now. Hope this local track is more friendly!
While I wake up to my same miserable life? haha

I'll send you an extra triple wide / large headband...
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      06-18-2012, 03:26 PM   #15
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A good way to learn is this: find a parking lot and learn to drift (when your tires are going out of course). To initiate a drift you want to turn in, hammer the throttle on off on off etc until the end comes out, gas keeps the drift going, lifting tightens the angle I.E. creates more spin.

There really isnt a clear cut answer for pulling out of a drift other than: dont do something that you would do to create a drift in the first place is generally a good rule of thumb. These principles are much more easy to understand in a low HP car. If you have access to a crappy slower rear wheel drive its an excellent way to learn.
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      06-18-2012, 03:54 PM   #16
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Go play at your local go kart track in the rain or damp. Cheapest quickest way to learn preventing spins IMO. The other is to learn to slide a bit in a big parking lot, again in the rain or damp (key is that thing happen at a lower speed in the wet). As others have aluded it's turning in and a slight lift off the gas, but not a full lift, want to keep the rear planted but remove a bit of the power that's causing the car to loose grip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle View Post
I pulled a Lebron move, and took my talents to South Beach for now. Hope this local track is more friendly!
Homestead or Sebring ?
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      06-18-2012, 05:19 PM   #17
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Ive been reading over this thread. Good info. I agree that a lower hp rwd car is much easier to learn in. When I get back from Europe I'm going to go give my 318i e30 hell lmao
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      06-18-2012, 05:31 PM   #18
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BTW, all the things mentioned are exercises (including what onelove discussess) we run kids through at http://streetsurvival.org/. In the Philadelphia area, both phillyscca.org and delvalbmwcca.org clubs put these on - I highly recommend them.

My first son took the class twice it was so much fun. I've just started teaching my second son to drive so hopefully he'll take a class in the fall.
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      06-18-2012, 06:00 PM   #19
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Power oversteer is different, slightly less gas while steering where you want to go. Slightly different.
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      06-18-2012, 06:58 PM   #20
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I can vouch for NOT lifting. My first HPDE I was in some fast sweeping esses and my instructor was telling me to keep on the gas through the turn, STAY ON IT STAY ON IT but my mind said to lift. I lifted and the back end went out from under me. I was able to correct it and keep it on the track (luckily), but at first the car went for a total spin. Like you, I don't know how I saved it, but lifting definitely caused the start of the spin.
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      06-18-2012, 07:07 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onelove View Post
Go play at your local go kart track in the rain or damp. Cheapest quickest way to learn preventing spins IMO. The other is to learn to slide a bit in a big parking lot, again in the rain or damp (key is that thing happen at a lower speed in the wet). As others have aluded it's turning in and a slight lift off the gas, but not a full lift, want to keep the rear planted but remove a bit of the power that's causing the car to loose grip.



Homestead or Sebring ?
Right now I'm in FT. Lauderdale until July 20th, so Homestead is closer I believe. I brought my numbers and helmet in case there's gonna be a local autox
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      06-18-2012, 09:42 PM   #22
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I'll be at the Chin event in Homestead on 7/14 if you're looking for some Z company.
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