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12-28-2020, 10:42 AM | #23 | |
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12-28-2020, 11:35 AM | #24 | ||
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A MAF rescale really should be done on an eddy current dyno, since fuel trims are historical artifacts, and tuners must account for what is known as a "transport delay"- the difference in time between combustion and for the lambda value to be reflected by the oxygen sensor. By holding the engine under constant load, part- and full-throttle, the effect of this delay can be minimized so that the tuner can properly rescale the MAF sensor. Even without a rescale, a MAF-based tune is usually better than alpha-n.
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12-28-2020, 12:02 PM | #25 |
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Great information pokeybritches and reinforcing what other have told me; CSL airbox funds are better spent elsewhere (3.9/4.1 final drive) if an improved driving experience is your goal.
If a mean looking engine bay and induction sound is your goal, all for it too! |
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12-28-2020, 12:04 PM | #26 | |
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Michael9218's solution seems a good trade off, especially when combined with Eventuri. |
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12-28-2020, 01:22 PM | #27 |
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When the intake valves open and air from the intake manifold begins to fill a cylinder, more air is pulled past the MAF sensor to fill the partial vacuum in the intake manifold just as it's being created. This happens faster than the speed of sound.
As precise as we like to be, combustion is ultimately a chaotic process. We have manufacturing tolerances in sensors, injectors, and systems. If you had your fuel injectors dynamically flow tested, they would vary in output by a few percent, and the latency and dead times would be different across all six. Oxygen sensors read differently as they age. The 1's and 0's in the ECU that model these systems are "close"... sometimes best average, and other times safest guess. In this case, I wouldn't overthink it. I do think there is something to be said for intake manifold design in terms of taking advantage of pressure waves to increase power. As the intake valves slam shut, the air that was entering the cylinder piles up in front of the valve and forms a pressure wave that reflects back through the intake runner. By timing the intake valve opening at exactly the right time when the high pressure wave returns, the cylinder can be filled to a greater degree, and VE can exceed 100%. I'm not going to say the OEM design is the absolute best design there is, but I wouldn't discount the effect that intake manifold tuning can have on the performance characteristics of the engine. In other words, the intake manifold needs to be more than just a box made out of carbon fiber. Some are better than others. Finally, I don't necessarily dislike carbon intakes. They sound and look fantastic. I just want to dispell some myths about alpha-n and MAF-based tuning.
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12-28-2020, 02:19 PM | #28 | |
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Am close to biting the bullet with a german manufacturer, example in bottom left pic, https://www.vft-opitz.de/galerie. " several layers of carbon, vacuum RTM process with tempering, milled aluminum connections, corresponding to series. " For USD 1350,- MAF housing will be circular with 90mm inner and 94mm outer diameter. So bigger than OEM (according to him, I didn't measure it yet) but he seems reliable and claims years of experience and stated that Motronic will adapt. It remains a bit of a gamble, especially considering all your info, but probably I'll take the chance. Is it possible that when installed I send you over some ECU log files or something so you can get a feel for the mixture ? (for payment of course) Just to check that it doesn't suddenly run super lean or rich. Last edited by Rombbb; 12-28-2020 at 05:42 PM.. |
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12-28-2020, 02:41 PM | #29 | |
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12-28-2020, 09:41 PM | #30 |
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Thanks for all the input Josh. I’ve always read that other than providing great engine sound and looks, the airbox actually was a nice little upgrade for power. Am I interpreting this the wrong way where there’s not much to gain going the airbox route with an alpha N tune?
Also, what are the pros and cons (if any cons), of going with the Alpha N vs a tune you can provide us guys that wanna keep the airbox?
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12-11-2021, 06:59 PM | #31 | |
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Did you end up going ahead with this? I was watching a Youtube video about the Redux E30 M3 and it was amazing how good the carbon intake sounded (on a 4-cylinder too)... which inevitably got me thinking about carbon airbox options again. A few people in this thread have said they would prefer to spend their money on other things given the CSL-style intake is mostly for looks and sound, but I wonder if there would be interest in having an exact reproduction of the stock plenum made in CF? Evolve/Eventuri do it for the E9X M3, which sounds amazing. I'm sure Karbonius could make it too. You could add an Eventuri, Gruppe M or leave the airbox stock, no problem with the MAF and you should(?) get the amazing CSL warble. |
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12-23-2021, 07:56 PM | #33 | |
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12-25-2021, 05:08 AM | #34 |
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12-25-2021, 06:37 AM | #35 | |
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Fingers crossed.
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12-27-2021, 12:35 AM | #36 |
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I don't have a CSL box in my Z4 M, but I do have one in my E46 M3 race car and it makes 320.6 WHP. It's a US car but the headers are changed to Euro ones and it has a standalone ECU (MaxxECU). Quite a bump from stock with only Euro headers (The car is cat-less) and a CSL box. The gain could be credited mainly to the cat-delete and a good tune though, but it does sound glorious.
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12-27-2021, 05:46 AM | #37 |
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I can assure any car will feel much worse than what the dyno numbers showed.
Airbox and alpha N are a gimmick unless you have a live tuner at each track.
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12-29-2021, 04:49 PM | #38 | |
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I haven't heard of VFT before - have you worked with them on other custom CF projects? |
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12-30-2021, 06:53 AM | #39 | |
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12-30-2021, 04:56 PM | #40 |
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Hey -- euros is euros. Count one more interested party.
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12-30-2021, 09:52 PM | #41 | |
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If these guys don't reply, maybe we could convince Evolve or Karbonius. One way or another, it isn't going to be cheap, but I'm keen to see if it's doable. |
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01-01-2022, 11:19 PM | #42 |
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hmm.. lots of info in this thread, good info.. I would like to remind people that spending /any/cash on bolt ons isnt going to net huge numbers, everything is a trade off, and sadly our s54 don't respond well in comparison to non NA engines. you can gain a few HP in the topend, in tradeoff to loosing torque in the bottom end. its a tradeoff. everything is a tradeoff..
I did love the sound that the CSL intake made on the S54, that sound was intoxicating, and unless you had/have a combination of add up mods to go with that intake, i am sure your loosing a hell of a lotta torque down low. (no doubt what Alex is saying) Does it matter? unless your racing? probably not... just to quickly add up a few numbers S54 powered Z4M, no idea, lets say 30K.. Thats probably a bit much, but bear with me.. CSL intake and supporting mods.. 5k Cams and install 4K Exhaust and install 2k thats already 35 percent of the cost of the car, with no real clear indication of how much extra HP/Torque your getting.. sadly thats just the truth with the NA S54.. its a lot of cash, for really lets be real here, maybe 35HP extra? ) (and thats complimenting add/on/bolt ons) each of those by itself (cams aside maybe) could even be a drop in performance... whats the answer? Beats the shit outa me?, seems that we have a real nice engine already, and with a tune (thanks Josh), it might just be the best it can get unless your in over your head and are spending HUGE dollars. Why I am I telling you this? because I want you to be aware that throwing a shit load of dollars at the S54 isnt going to net you hardly any (in comparison to other engines) increase in performance. thats just the way it is.. but that CSL intake sure as hell does sound the goods Happy new years everyone
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01-06-2022, 08:08 PM | #43 | |
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01-14-2022, 07:11 PM | #44 | |
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