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View Poll Results: Will Donald Trump be Impeached or will this blowback on Biden
Orange Trump bad. Trump gone. 84 32.43%
Trump Trump-umphant. 88 33.98%
Inclusive 18 6.95%
Biden C4'd to oblivion. 75 28.96%
Biden grows in strength and gets shot in the arm for nomination. 10 3.86%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 259. You may not vote on this poll

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      01-23-2020, 09:30 AM   #5985
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Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
I baffles me that people believe Schiff cares about rooting out corruption
FTFY
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      01-23-2020, 09:33 AM   #5986
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Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
So you only support him because he won the election for your team. Got it.

Is impeachment worse than going to hell? Seems like Lindsey was just a little more harsh.

I can see why she was upset and caught up in the moment. We have not had this polarizing of a president in recent history. He promotes a toxic environment which has deeply divided our country and it's sad.
this country was divided before he got into office, and even before he started campaigning. that is the only reason he was elected. The Us vs Them mentality started around the rise of social media. Unfortunately for Obama, that was during his terms so people will blame him.
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      01-23-2020, 09:45 AM   #5987
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Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
How's that ongoing strategy of fighting corruption in Ukraine going for the trump administration. Oh, what, they aren't doing anything?
Remember when OJ pledged to work tirelessly for the rest of his days to find the real killer? Yeah, that's sorta how the Ukraine corruption investigation is going.

Oh, and if you are serious about fighting corruption do you work through the State Department and established diplomatic channels or send your personal lawyer?
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      01-23-2020, 09:54 AM   #5988
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Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
this country was divided before he got into office, and even before he started campaigning. that is the only reason he was elected. The Us vs Them mentality started around the rise of social media. Unfortunately for Obama, that was during his terms so people will blame him.
Read and article at lunch yesterday that dove into this very subject and how the constitutional framers were highly concerned that in an impeachment scenario, elected officials would "team up" for their political party and divide the country. Seems that even during the Andrew Johnson impeachment, the lines were drawn and Congressmen retreated to their corners to support their party. That actually gives me a little hope that we will survive as we've been here before.

But yeah, social media is the complete game-changer here. It's like cranking the nitrous up to 11 and mashing down the gas pedal. Turns ordinary folks who would get along just fine in person into bitter enemies.
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      01-23-2020, 09:55 AM   #5989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
Remember when OJ pledged to work tirelessly for the rest of his days to find the real killer? Yeah, that's sorta how the Ukraine corruption investigation is going.

Oh, and if you are serious about fighting corruption do you work through the State Department and established diplomatic channels or send your personal lawyer?
And OJ ended up in jail for something else. History? Trump has the Zel call 1(?) day after Muellers final testimony? If he is not removed......what next, and how long before his next unethical move?
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      01-23-2020, 09:57 AM   #5990
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
Read and article at lunch yesterday that dove into this very subject and how the constitutional framers were highly concerned that in an impeachment scenario, elected officials would "team up" for their political party and divide the country. Seems that even during the Andrew Johnson impeachment, the lines were drawn and Congressmen retreated to their corners to support their party. That actually gives me a little hope that we will survive as we've been here before.

But yeah, social media is the complete game-changer here. It's like cranking the nitrous up to 11 and mashing down the gas pedal. Turns ordinary folks who would get along just fine in person into bitter enemies.
Indeed - everyone has a platform and a megaphone now. The genie is out of the bottle, though. No putting it back. People will have to be better. I'm not holding my breath.
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      01-23-2020, 10:10 AM   #5991
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Indeed - everyone has a platform and a megaphone now. The genie is out of the bottle, though. No putting it back. People will have to be better. I'm not holding my breath.
Decay of society started well before social media, it was the atomization of the family, alienation of membership from their local churches, unions, civic ordere, charity and so on. I believe one of our favorite hobbies cars played a major factor in it as people started travel further and lost focus of their own local comminity and neighborhood.
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      01-23-2020, 10:15 AM   #5992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
Remember when OJ pledged to work tirelessly for the rest of his days to find the real killer? Yeah, that's sorta how the Ukraine corruption investigation is going.

Oh, and if you are serious about fighting corruption do you work through the State Department and established diplomatic channels or send your personal lawyer?
You should re-read the Zelensky transcript. Zelensky brought up Rudy first, and trump just follow suit because he clearly already had dealings with him. He mentioned both the AG and Rudy. Not "just his personal lawyer".

EDIT: further on this, the president has the authority to assign special envoys. They can be government employee, or private citizens. They can be given a title (ambassador, for example), or not be given one at all. Senate approval is only required for official positions within the government. If he trusts Rudy, why would he not want to use him for such things? (source: https://www.justice.gov/file/20891/download)

Last edited by detroitm2; 01-23-2020 at 10:23 AM..
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      01-23-2020, 10:22 AM   #5993
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Trump = social media+snowflakes+socialists
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      01-23-2020, 10:27 AM   #5994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
You should re-read the Zelensky transcript. Zelensky brought up Rudy first, and trump just follow suit because he clearly already had dealings with him. He mentioned both the AG and Rudy. Not "just his personal lawyer".

EDIT: further on this, the president has the authority to assign special envoys. They can be government employee, or private citizens. They can be given a title (ambassador, for example), or not be given one at all. Senate approval is only required for official positions within the government. If he trusts Rudy, why would he not want to use him for such things? (source: https://www.justice.gov/file/20891/download)
Oh believe me, I have no doubt that Rudy (as opposed to the State Department or diplomatic channels) was the right man for the job. We likely differ on what exactly that job was... I'd love to hear more about it from Rudy on the floor of the senate as opposed to Fox news.
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      01-23-2020, 10:33 AM   #5995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
Oh believe me, I have no doubt that Rudy (as opposed to the State Department or diplomatic channels) was the right man for the job. We likely differ on what exactly that job was... I'd love to hear more about it from Rudy on the floor of the senate as opposed to Fox news.
Possibly. I'd be interested to hear what he has to say as well, to be honest.

I was clarifying the actual law as a lot of people (not specifically targeting you) do not understand that it is 100% under the Presidents authority to issue special envoy status to private citizens. Many folks simply believe this is illegal.

Honestly this specific thing (special envoys) was not used a lot until Obama took office. Obama used a TON of special envoys for targeting specific foreign policy situations. Certainly employing the "best man/woman for the job" rather than using someone whose title dictates they should handle it, rather than being particularly skilled.
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      01-23-2020, 10:40 AM   #5996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
You should re-read the Zelensky transcript. Zelensky brought up Rudy first, and trump just follow suit because he clearly already had dealings with him. He mentioned both the AG and Rudy. Not "just his personal lawyer".

EDIT: further on this, the president has the authority to assign special envoys. They can be government employee, or private citizens. They can be given a title (ambassador, for example), or not be given one at all. Senate approval is only required for official positions within the government. If he trusts Rudy, why would he not want to use him for such things? (source: https://www.justice.gov/file/20891/download)
How would Zelensky know to bring up Rudy?

Did Trump actually name him a special envoy? As Trump's personal lawyer he holds absolutely zero standing or authority vs. any other private US citizen.
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      01-23-2020, 10:54 AM   #5997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
How would Zelensky know to bring up Rudy?

Did Trump actually name him a special envoy? As Trump's personal lawyer he holds absolutely zero standing or authority vs. any other private US citizen.
Directly from the transcript:

Quote:
For that purpose, I just recalled our ambassador from United States and he will be replaced by a very competent and very experienced ambassador who will work hard on making sure that our two nations are getting closer. I would also like and hope to see him having your trust and your confidence and have personal relations with you so we can cooperate even more so. I will personally tell you that one of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani just recently and we are hoping very much that Mr. Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and we will meet once he comes to Ukraine.
He doesn't need to "appoint" someone as a personal envoy, they just are. It doesn't matter if they hold any kind of power or authority. They are also offered zero diplomatic protections.

EDIT: further reading on this: https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cg...enn_law_review

Excerpt:
Quote:
An ambassador or other public minister is an officer of the
United States, and holds an office under the Government of
the United States. An agent sent out to a foreign country to
investigate, to ascertain and report facts, or to negotiate a
treaty, does not hold an office; but is engaged ir a temporary employment. An office is a continuing position, and
though the incumbent be changed, the duties remain. But an
employment which is transient, occasional or incidental, can
in no proper sense be termed an office.

Last edited by detroitm2; 01-23-2020 at 11:15 AM..
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      01-23-2020, 10:55 AM   #5998
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Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
Weren't all Senators supposed to be present during these opening statements? Why were 22 GOP senators not present during these statements?

Talk about a sham trial.
Sham trial for a sham impeachment, sounds like things are leveling out.
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      01-23-2020, 11:34 AM   #5999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
Directly from the transcript:
Excerpt:
Rudy is not employed by the US Government. He is "employed" by Trump personally.

So he is not a temporary employee.
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      01-23-2020, 11:43 AM   #6000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
Directly from the transcript:...
"...one of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani just recently and we are hoping very much that Mr. Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and we will meet once he comes to Ukraine."

That doesn't say who initiated the call or who thought the trip to Ukraine was good/necessary. You could read that either way - the larger point being why is the President's personal attorney having these conversations and meetings when it would appear that official diplomacy would be much more appropriate when addressing things like government attempts to address corruption.



Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
...He doesn't need to "appoint" someone as a personal envoy, they just are. It doesn't matter if they hold any kind of power or authority. They are also offered zero diplomatic protections.

EDIT: further reading on this: https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cg...enn_law_review

Excerpt:
So, "special envoy" is meaningless if it isn't announced. No protections, even if it is announced, and there is no indication you're speaking for the President or anyone more important than yourself (a private citizen) without the announcement.

Was Zelensky supposed to guess whether Giuliani was a special envoy and speaking for the President?

As was already pointed out - Rudy isn't employed by the government, full stop, so "transient, occasional or incidental" is irrelevant.
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      01-23-2020, 11:58 AM   #6001
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Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
Rudy is not employed by the US Government. He is "employed" by Trump personally.

So he is not a temporary employee.
Please actually read the documents, instead of assuming you know what you're talking about. No one said anything about being "employed"
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      01-23-2020, 12:04 PM   #6002
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Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
Possibly. I'd be interested to hear what he has to say as well, to be honest.

I was clarifying the actual law as a lot of people (not specifically targeting you) do not understand that it is 100% under the Presidents authority to issue special envoy status to private citizens. Many folks simply believe this is illegal.

Honestly this specific thing (special envoys) was not used a lot until Obama took office. Obama used a TON of special envoys for targeting specific foreign policy situations. Certainly employing the "best man/woman for the job" rather than using someone whose title dictates they should handle it, rather than being particularly skilled.
Totally understand and agree. It's not illegal. There's a lot of things the POTUS can do with his/her power that are not strictly illegal, however it doesn't mean I like it! Bottom line I don't trust Trump's ability to pick the "right person for the job" as a substitute for career diplomats and foreign service personnel. I think our state department and diplomats are better trained, educated, and positioned to work through complex geo-political situations than anyone Trump (or Obama, or any other president) would hand pick to cowboy a special mission. I'm also not buying the "Rudy was there to root out corruption" line, but hey, i'm happy to change my mind as soon as I hear from Rudy, Bolton, Pompeo, Pence, and others in a forum that is not a cable TV entertainment channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
Please actually read the documents, instead of assuming you know what you're talking about. No one said anything about being "employed"
So Rudy works for free? Follow the money. Who pays Rudy for his jaunts to Ukraine?
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      01-23-2020, 12:05 PM   #6003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
"...one of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani just recently and we are hoping very much that Mr. Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and we will meet once he comes to Ukraine."

That doesn't say who initiated the call or who thought the trip to Ukraine was good/necessary. You could read that either way - the larger point being why is the President's personal attorney having these conversations and meetings when it would appear that official diplomacy would be much more appropriate when addressing things like government attempts to address corruption.
Indeed it doesn't. Thats part of the mystery of all this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
So, "special envoy" is meaningless if it isn't announced. No protections, even if it is announced, and there is no indication you're speaking for the President or anyone more important than yourself (a private citizen) without the announcement.

Was Zelensky supposed to guess whether Giuliani was a special envoy and speaking for the President?

Special envoys do not have to be announced. In some situations they are used as a covert position for investigative purposes.

If the President of the US says "I'm going to send a guy", you can be sure Zelensky knew he had some kind of envoy status with the President. Again, this does not need to be officially announced in any kind of capacity. The President is within his full right to utilize private citizens in this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
As was already pointed out - Rudy isn't employed by the government, full stop, so "transient, occasional or incidental" is irrelevant.
Again, what does this have to do with being an employee? My guess is you both just skimmed both of the documents I posted, because it makes it pretty clear there is no requirement to be a "government employee" to act as a special envoy to the President. Full stop.
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      01-23-2020, 12:06 PM   #6004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
How would Zelensky know to bring up Rudy?

Did Trump actually name him a special envoy? As Trump's personal lawyer he holds absolutely zero standing or authority vs. any other private US citizen.
Directly from the transcript:

Quote:
For that purpose, I just recalled our ambassador from United States and he will be replaced by a very competent and very experienced ambassador who will work hard on making sure that our two nations are getting closer. I would also like and hope to see him having your trust and your confidence and have personal relations with you so we can cooperate even more so. I will personally tell you that one of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani just recently and we are hoping very much that Mr. Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and we will meet once he comes to Ukraine.
He doesn't need to "appoint" someone as a personal envoy, they just are. It doesn't matter if they hold any kind of power or authority. They are also offered zero diplomatic protections.

EDIT: further reading on this: https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cg...enn_law_review

Excerpt:
Quote:
An ambassador or other public minister is an officer of the
United States, and holds an office under the Government of
the United States. An agent sent out to a foreign country to
investigate, to ascertain and report facts, or to negotiate a
treaty, does not hold an office; but is engaged ir a temporary employment. An office is a continuing position, and
though the incumbent be changed, the duties remain. But an
employment which is transient, occasional or incidental, can
in no proper sense be termed an office.
Not a transcript, a call summary. As the actual transcript is still under lock and key as a classified piece of information. If that call was so perfect, how about the ACTUAL transcript be released.
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      01-23-2020, 12:10 PM   #6005
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Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
Not a transcript, a call summary. As the actual transcript is still under lock and key as a classified piece of information. If that call was so perfect, how about the ACTUAL transcript be released.
Is that the hill you're willing to die on?
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      01-23-2020, 12:12 PM   #6006
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Not pretty much. Exactly.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rty/661544002/
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