Still want an EV?

[MTrumbo3]

Originally Posted by P1

Guy I know has an e-tron. He lives in an apartment complex and he can't charge it there. So he has to spend his Saturday driving to the library to charge it there for a few hours.

"But it's OK, I just go out and get some lunch"

What a waste of time.

useless

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

...And the Tesla costs more to insure.

A lot more.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by M3WC

A lot more.

Now that I did not know. How much more and why does it cost more? I mean let’s face it these M cars cost quite a bit also. But if you’re comparing a Tesla to a Honda Civic, I’d like to know why it cost more to insure a model 3 over a civic. And how much more.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

That's my point. It's not true. At least not for Tesla from the data I have seen. Their rebates started getting cut in 2019 and were completely gone by 2020 yet they set sales records every year even though they had no tax credits. The data I have seen indicates this year might end up being lower than last year when they had no incentives. Of course inflation and all rest of it I'm sure plays a role, but if incentives were the primary motivating factor in people buying a Tesla vs an ICE then between 2019-2022 sales should have declined and they only increased.

As an ex-ev hater I think the reason they don't sell more is because of false range anxiety fears and political/social stigma associated with them. My guess is if anyone who is a candidate for an EV (has a home with garage or somewhere to charge it) was given an EV to use for a few weeks... I think the majority of them would be converts.

When Tesla's rebate allocations ran out at 200,000 units sold, it basically cut the price of its vehicles to match the -$7,500 tax rebate. That move was actually better for the consumer because it lowered the price of the loan costs by needing to finance less of the retail price. When there was the Government tax rebate, that -$7,500 was a reduction in a customer's tax burden (if he qualified for the rebate), so unless the customer put $7,500 or more as a down payment the loan was a higher amount, because receipt of the tax rebate was a post-sale activity.

Essentially the tax rebate never helped the lower income customer to buy an EV that theoretically is less expensive to own because of the lower energy consumption EVs offer. The new tax rebate law allows the $7,500 (max) to be applied at the time of sale, which effectively lowers the purchase price and therefore loan costs, but no one has yet figured out how to implement it.

I've made that argument years ago on on other EV threads here on E90 post that the original tax rebate law was actually a roadblock to EV purchase because it never lowered the purchase price of EV for lower income consumers. It really just helped higher income consumers come April tax time if they owed the Feds more than $7,500 in taxes.

And states still offered incentives beyond the Feds of which people still take advantage.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Anti eve vee ists have no answer!

This only gets better from here. Excuses will soon be no more lmaoooo

Time is on our side ev fans!!!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Governments say they are going to do all kinds of nonsense. Let me know when an actual ban happens. How many administrations will have come and gone between now and 2035???

Shit probably more likely we'll be living in a post nuclear apocalypse by 2035. Or I might just finally be voted ruler of the universe and you all will be forced to drive miatas with the top down rain or shine.

4

[freakystyly]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Now that I did not know. How much more and why does it cost more? I mean let’s face it these M cars cost quite a bit also. But if you’re comparing a Tesla to a Honda Civic, I’d like to know why it cost more to insure a model 3 over a civic. And how much more.

It's repair and replacement costs associated with bodywork, sensors, and other knickknacks that make logical sense VS a common civic. The Tesla after sale supply chain took a while to actually develop, it may be better now but it wasn't when the insurance people decided on things.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Now that I did not know. How much more and why does it cost more? I mean let’s face it these M cars cost quite a bit also. But if you’re comparing a Tesla to a Honda Civic, I’d like to know why it cost more to insure a model 3 over a civic. And how much more.

Not a Tesla but a Rivian:

Go to the 3:11 mark and Rich goes over what seems to be a minor fender bender repair which is going to run him (or really his insurance company) just north of $37k to fix. He also mentions another Rivian video that has what appears to be less damage than his and that repair is at $42k.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Not a Tesla but a Rivian:

Go to the 3:11 mark and Rich goes over what seems to be a minor fender bender repair which is going to run him (or really his insurance company) just north of $37k to fix. He also mentions another Rivian video that has what appears to be less damage than his and that repair is at $42k.

That's getting close to "write off" territory.

[gonzo]

Deserves it for wearing Crocs.

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Yes they do. The discussion above was that $2000 in maintenance on a Camry was called “utter nonsense”. It’s not. 60,000 miles in an ICE vehicle can incur significant maintenance cost. My experience is that electrics are less due to less fluid reservoirs in general. The tires are generally more, but not always.


It was just a discussion point.

Shawn

sure $2k if youre including $600-800 in camry OE tires. But then you need to include the $1k in Tesla OE tires. (Prices per Discount Tire for OE Tires)

[BGM-M3COMP]

turtles!

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

sure $2k if youre including $600-800 in camry OE tires. But then you need to include the $1k in Tesla OE tires. (Prices per Discount Tire for OE Tires)

Of course. But the idea that "tires don't count toward maintenance costs" is ludicrous. The Camry tires MAY be cheaper (not always, have to price them). This analysis included all services. I include everything, but depreciation isn't really important to me, cause I don't let them go much. But I don't exclude that from any analysis just because its convenient for my argument.

Shawn

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Yes they do. The discussion above was that $2000 in maintenance on a Camry was called “utter nonsense”. It’s not. 60,000 miles in an ICE vehicle can incur significant maintenance cost. My experience is that electrics are less due to less fluid reservoirs in general. The tires are generally more, but not always.


It was just a discussion point.

Shawn

You never owned a Toyota have you... because in 13 years owning my Scion over 83k miles, I had to spend a grand total of 1/4 quart of coolant, once. Not once have I had to put oil in outside of standard oil changes.

Using my own Scion as a benchmark over 60k miles (which uses the same motor as a 2012-2017 Camry), I have spent $600 over 10 oil changes, $75 in 1 coolant swap at the shop, 1 Costco Battery for $100

So total, if we use the idea of removing common consumables like tires and brakes between EV and ICE, I have spent a total of $775 over 60k miles.
I mean, more than 50% over estimate is not utter nonsense I guess....

My tires cost me $600, and that was Bridgestone RE980AS, not some cheapo tire.
I won't know the cost of replacing brakes since I did my own, but 2 sets of front pads, 1 set of rear pads, 4 rotors is about $250 USD from Rockauto
Total cost for me over 60k miles including tires: $775 + $600+250 = $1625

Let's compare to a Model 3, since we are talking here
I will assume a Tesla will consume the same brakes

2 sets of the same grade to my pads in rockauto 'premium' grade, Powerstops is $440 USD (rough estimate after conversion, this is 2 sets of front pads, 1 set of rear pads, 4 rotors)
1 set of Bridgestone RE980AS+ in 235/45-18 from tirerack is $783 USD after rebate.
Total cost for the Model 3: $1223

Even after adding brakes and tires, I am STILL under 2k

2K in maintainance over 60k miles likely applies more so to a BMW and had you use a BMW as a comparison then few would argue, but you are literally comparing to one of the most reliable cars with a low running cost.

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Of course. But the idea that "tires don't count toward maintenance costs" is ludicrous. The Camry tires MAY be cheaper (not always, have to price them). This analysis included all services. I include everything, but depreciation isn't really important to me, cause I don't let them go much. But I don't exclude that from any analysis just because its convenient for my argument.

Shawn

if both vehicles need it, then i wouldnt count it in to the maintenance cost difference. if you want to include tires, then its 2k for the camry, and 1k for the tesla. for a net of 1k more in maintenance for the camry.

I priced them both for 2023s off discount tire.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by kyriian

You never owned a Toyota have you... because in 13 years owning my Scion over 83k miles, I had to spend a grand total of 1/4 quart of coolant, once. Not once have I had to put oil in outside of standard oil changes.

Holy mother of Pearl...

1993 Toyota Camry LE, owned from 1993 until 2012 when it was wrecked. 175,000 miles. All the scions are cheap crapboxes compared to that limo. It wasn't a huge amount of maintenance, but it wasn't as good as my 1992 Honda Civic CX, which is still on the road today, and the only things it needed were a water pump, and a drivers side interior handle.

Please stop jumping to conclusions. You might sprain your ankle.

Shawn

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

if both vehicles need it, then i wouldnt count it in to the maintenance cost difference. if you want to include tires, then its 2k for the camry, and 1k for the tesla. for a net of 1k more in maintenance for the camry.

I priced them both for 2023s off discount tire.

It's maintenance for them both. Tire cost and how much they wear them out is very important. I'll bet the Tesla wears out more expensive tires faster. My i8 wore out back tires like there was no tomorrow.

The whole thing centered around calling $2k in 60,000 miles for the camry not valid. It is. AND, honestly, if you're going to keep the damn thing, a transmission oil drain and fill as well as brake fluid, and probably brake pads. And one coolant drain and flush. Brake pads age, and don't brake as well at five years. It's just part of owning the car. As well as insurance, and property tax.

I'm not myopic on any of these. Not at all. But I CAN tell you that when maintained similar ways, the overall cost on an electric certainly SEEMS smaller when writing the checks, even when you DIY like I do (except tires and alignments, those machines are expensive).

Shawn

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Holy mother of Pearl...

1993 Toyota Camry LE, owned from 1993 until 2012 when it was wrecked. 175,000 miles. All the scions are cheap crapboxes compared to that limo. It wasn't a huge amount of maintenance, but it wasn't as good as my 1992 Honda Civic CX, which is still on the road today, and the only things it needed were a water pump, and a drivers side interior handle.

Please stop jumping to conclusions. You might sprain your ankle.

Shawn

Oh jeez...

Cherry picking my statment like how you do right?

Maths, YOUR very statement why EV has momentum is already discussed by everyone, 2k in maintainace, YOUR statement

My maintainace is 1625 including tires, not 2k

Model 3, including the same grade and consumption rate in brakes and tires, is at best $400 bucks cheaper over 60k miles,

I will state AGAIN, never have been pro ICE or pro EV, its just a fking car and if the maths work for you and anyone else great, good for you. But throwing random numbers like this is utter nonsense because its not true as Efthreeoh has already pointed out
You also seem to be the only one who add the same consumable costs to your equation, considering most EV uses tires faster, uses brakes faster (just heavier weight) so removing these two factors BENEFITS EV.

[freakystyly]

In reality the only fluid EVs don't use is engine oil unless the motors are direct drive. Coolant, brake fluid, transmission fluid, washer fluid all present. And of course fuel but that isn't exactly a wear item... Wear and tear should reflect a heavier vehicle (minus brake pads thanks to regen).

[freakystyly]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'd bet at 60,000 the Camry would still be on the original tires and brakes.

I believe that, a lot of all seasons have excellent wear these days.

It's shocking how many people in the general public never look at their tires until someone tells them to... going in for service or gov. inspection is often a benefit beyond the service expected.

[BGM-M3COMP]

2028 will really be the start of the party!

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

In reality the only fluid EVs don't use is engine oil unless the motors are direct drive. Coolant, brake fluid, transmission fluid, washer fluid all present. And of course fuel but that isn't exactly a wear item... Wear and tear should reflect a heavier vehicle (minus brake pads thanks to regen).

Many are direct drive. And you're forgetting differentials. None of the EV drivetrains I've had so far have differential fluid (some of BMW's hybrid drivetrains do). Even if they have transmissions, because they aren't sitting next to a 250 degree lump of metal, the transmission fluid lasts longer because of lack of thermal stress.

Shawn