ZPOST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   ZPOST > BMW Z4 Technical Talk > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
  TireRack

SUPPORT ZPOST BY DOING YOUR TIRERACK SHOPPING FROM THIS BANNER, THANKS!
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-11-2010, 09:31 PM   #1
jbh
Private First Class
jbh's Avatar
13
Rep
156
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4M
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fort Worth

iTrader: (2)

Any suggestions on alignment for street/autox with Turner camber bolts?

I just installed the camber bolts/shims ($15 kit) from Turner. Now I need to get it aligned. I run Autox events 2-3 times a month and street drive the car 3-4 days a week. I have a second set of wheels with Hancook RS3's for autox (245 square) and have my regular wheels I street drive on with stock tires and stock stagger.

I was thinking of running -2.25 to -2.50 front camber if I can get it with the bolts to help reduce understeer and promote better tire wear for events (I know I will wear the insides of my street tires a little) and keep it drivable on the street without any bad effects. I don't know what to run in the rear with this setup. Also not sure about the toe but .05 seems to be popular.

I am open to any suggestions for someone who had done something similar as far as the specs, I need to tell the shop what I want.
Appreciate 0
      10-11-2010, 11:55 PM   #2
Finnegan
Dog Listener
Finnegan's Avatar
United_States
675
Rep
7,837
Posts

Drives: Z4M/. Z3M, E36/46 M3
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Teaching the dog to slalom

iTrader: (22)

Here are few threads on this one:

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=422123

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8091235

If memory serves you're right on the toe. Of course, the closer to zero the better for tire wear, but there are trade-offs naturally.

Might want to see if the mods can join this thread to the one by dekaliber (same topic)....
Appreciate 0
      10-12-2010, 05:34 AM   #3
dekaliber
Major
53
Rep
1,142
Posts

Drives: '07 Z4MC, '11 JCW, '18 Z06
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (1)

To share some information gleaned from the internet (FWIW):

Front Toe-Out
Just Right
Reduced understeer at turn-in
Improved steering response
Counteracts natural tendency for front- and all-wheel-drive cars to toe-in under throttle load

Too Much
Instability during braking
Straight-line instability, especially over single-wheel bumps or split-traction surfaces Unrecoverable understeer (I think this might be a typo -- I would think too much toe out would mean oversteer)

Front Toe-In
Just Right
Generally helps make the car feel more stable

Too Much
Wandering under braking
Refusal to turn in or rapid turn-in followed by understeer

Rear Toe-Out
Just Right
Easy midturn rotation
Less front tire load

Too Much
Violent on-throttle oversteer on RWD cars
Can help drift cars
Violent lift-throttle or trail-braking rotation

Rear Toe-In
Just Right
Easily controlled power oversteer in rear-wheel-drive cars

Too Much
Sluggish response
Midcorner understeer
Instability at turn-in

I'm planning on running as little camber as I can with 2 washers, with alignment pins in place, which should get me to -2 to -2.2, with somewhere between 0 and 0.05 toe in. AFAIK toe setting affects tire wear much more than camber, with toe-in tending to wear at the outside and toe-out increasing wear the inside.
Appreciate 0
      10-12-2010, 09:31 AM   #4
a_riddler
Bimmer Noob
a_riddler's Avatar
United_States
25
Rep
564
Posts

Drives: 08 Z4MC;08 MBZ E350 4Matic
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Seattle, WA

iTrader: (6)

Running -2.5 camber Front, 0 Toe with 2 washers; -2.0 camber rear. After last autocross, going to take out one washer which should put me at -2 camber.
__________________

08 Z4MC /// DKF Exhaust, Stoptech 6/4 BBK, TCK Coilovers, Strong-Strut, Apex EC-7's, APR Splitter/Wing,
AFE Intake, Underdrive pulleys, AS SSK, Jaffster, UUC Tranny Mounts, Matte Grill, RPI Scoop, CF Badges
Appreciate 0
      10-12-2010, 11:25 AM   #5
dekaliber
Major
53
Rep
1,142
Posts

Drives: '07 Z4MC, '11 JCW, '18 Z06
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (1)

Was -2.5 camber excessive? Would be interested in your opinions on how the car handled.
Appreciate 0
      10-12-2010, 12:04 PM   #6
The HACK
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
The HACK's Avatar
1774
Rep
5,345
Posts

Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dekaliber View Post
Was -2.5 camber excessive? Would be interested in your opinions on how the car handled.
Here's what you can do. Align the suspension with 2 washers (that's nearly 1 full degree of negative camber added) for the street. If you have the alignment pin pulled, at furthest out point you'll probably get about -1.5 to -1.7 degree of negative camber with about 1/16" toe-in. Suitable for street use while not too aggressive on the tires. At auto-cross or track events, push the strut all the way in to get to -2.5 to -2.7 (they don't have to be even). With the negative camber pushed up, you'll get zero to slight toe-out which will aid in steering response. Mark the top of your strut tower with a permanent market to indicate where the street alignment is at.
Appreciate 0
      10-12-2010, 02:36 PM   #7
a_riddler
Bimmer Noob
a_riddler's Avatar
United_States
25
Rep
564
Posts

Drives: 08 Z4MC;08 MBZ E350 4Matic
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Seattle, WA

iTrader: (6)

The -2.5 camber has greatly helped the understeer during autoX, but the tire wear is noticeable.

I was planning to do exactly what The Hack was suggesting, but my front end was off by .5 from left and right already. Have to pull a washer to be able to adjust one side down from -2.5 (ie, one side is all the way in, the other all the way out). Marking the range you have from adjusting the top is the best way to mix settings for autoX and street. Well, until you go camber plates, which I'm sure you can't in your category.
__________________

08 Z4MC /// DKF Exhaust, Stoptech 6/4 BBK, TCK Coilovers, Strong-Strut, Apex EC-7's, APR Splitter/Wing,
AFE Intake, Underdrive pulleys, AS SSK, Jaffster, UUC Tranny Mounts, Matte Grill, RPI Scoop, CF Badges
Appreciate 0
      10-12-2010, 08:18 PM   #8
jbh
Private First Class
jbh's Avatar
13
Rep
156
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4M
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fort Worth

iTrader: (2)

All good info here. NTB will do a 1 year alignment where I can have it re-aligned at will for one year to change my specs, they confirmed it when I asked and told them these will not be factory specs. Anyone use them for alignment?

I will probably shoot for -2.25 to start with .05 toe out? Maybe have the rears at -.5 less so -1.75? Don't know about toe for the rear.

I do like the idea of just moving the struts but having toe in for street use, is that ok?
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2010, 03:09 AM   #9
Finnegan
Dog Listener
Finnegan's Avatar
United_States
675
Rep
7,837
Posts

Drives: Z4M/. Z3M, E36/46 M3
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Teaching the dog to slalom

iTrader: (22)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Here's what you can do. Align the suspension with 2 washers (that's nearly 1 full degree of negative camber added) for the street. If you have the alignment pin pulled, at furthest out point you'll probably get about -1.5 to -1.7 degree of negative camber with about 1/16" toe-in. Suitable for street use while not too aggressive on the tires. At auto-cross or track events, push the strut all the way in to get to -2.5 to -2.7 (they don't have to be even). With the negative camber pushed up, you'll get zero to slight toe-out which will aid in steering response. Mark the top of your strut tower with a permanent market to indicate where the street alignment is at.
Damn. That's some wonderful pragmatic advice!
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2010, 09:42 AM   #10
The HACK
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
The HACK's Avatar
1774
Rep
5,345
Posts

Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
Damn. That's some wonderful pragmatic advice!
Yeah...it's almost as if I have done this a few times myself.
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2010, 07:13 PM   #11
Finnegan
Dog Listener
Finnegan's Avatar
United_States
675
Rep
7,837
Posts

Drives: Z4M/. Z3M, E36/46 M3
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Teaching the dog to slalom

iTrader: (22)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Yeah...it's almost as if I have done this a few times myself.


Am I thinking of this correctly as sort of a "poor man" adjustible camber plate? Because it seems like it more or less provides similar functionality.

I've learned so much from this site. Thanks.
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2010, 06:42 AM   #12
jbh
Private First Class
jbh's Avatar
13
Rep
156
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4M
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fort Worth

iTrader: (2)

I ended up at a performance shop to get it done. I told him what I was using the car for and he had some ideas and then called tc Kline and turner to get their opinion. I ended up with -2 up front and -1.5 in back. Zero toe in front. He said this was recommended for stock suspension. It was $135 for 1 year alingment.
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2010, 06:51 AM   #13
jbh
Private First Class
jbh's Avatar
13
Rep
156
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4M
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fort Worth

iTrader: (2)

He said I was -2.5 when I came in with the 2 washers. He actually took one out and replaced it with a thinner shim. He races an e36 m3 so he should know our front end.

So I guess I was around -1 before I installed the shims.
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2010, 07:08 AM   #14
inTgr8r
Lieutenant General
inTgr8r's Avatar
Canada
2030
Rep
11,417
Posts

Drives: M2 Comp
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (10)

FWIW, I found this site for shim washers.
http://www.washersusa.com/shimf.html
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2010, 07:38 AM   #15
dekaliber
Major
53
Rep
1,142
Posts

Drives: '07 Z4MC, '11 JCW, '18 Z06
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (1)

My company has a huge selection of shim washers so I was thinking about going that route myself -- I may still depending on how the alignment turns out. The standard shims (similar to those sold on the washersusa site) all have an OD of 3/4" (19mm) for the ID 1/2" sizes, whereas the washers have an OD of 24mm. Not sure how important the difference in bearing surface is in this application — it may be a nonissue. We also have "wide rim" shims where the OD is increased to 7/8" (22mm), but the hardness rating is reduced to RH B65 vs. the B85 of the standard shims and the B90 minimum of the hardened washers. Again, not sure if that matters much at all in this application.

jbh, do you remember what his toe recommendation was for the back? Would be interested in hearing your impressions of how the car handles with your setup.
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2010, 11:53 AM   #16
The HACK
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
The HACK's Avatar
1774
Rep
5,345
Posts

Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dekaliber View Post
My company has a huge selection of shim washers so I was thinking about going that route myself -- I may still depending on how the alignment turns out. The standard shims (similar to those sold on the washersusa site) all have an OD of 3/4" (19mm) for the ID 1/2" sizes, whereas the washers have an OD of 24mm. Not sure how important the difference in bearing surface is in this application it may be a nonissue. We also have "wide rim" shims where the OD is increased to 7/8" (22mm), but the hardness rating is reduced to RH B65 vs. the B85 of the standard shims and the B90 minimum of the hardened washers. Again, not sure if that matters much at all in this application.

jbh, do you remember what his toe recommendation was for the back? Would be interested in hearing your impressions of how the car handles with your setup.
It is a load bearing surface so the size of the washer is important. If I recall, the size of the washers used on the Turner kit is about the same OD as the built-in factory washer on the OEM bolt.

I'm not a material engineer or scientist, so I would only offer a guess that the material strength, stretch characteristics should all be equivalent to the factory washer.
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2010, 11:30 PM   #17
jbh
Private First Class
jbh's Avatar
13
Rep
156
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4M
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fort Worth

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dekaliber View Post
jbh, do you remember what his toe recommendation was for the back? Would be interested in hearing your impressions of how the car handles with your setup.
3/32 toe in on back.

Car drives fine, tracks fine in a straight line. Feels a little more planted or stable in the turns but I have only been on the street so far. I plan to do an autox next weekend to try it out. On the street I don't feel any compromise over stock alignment. He did say my rear toe was out of wack, both pointing to the right a little when I brought it in.
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2010, 11:52 PM   #18
dekaliber
Major
53
Rep
1,142
Posts

Drives: '07 Z4MC, '11 JCW, '18 Z06
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
It is a load bearing surface so the size of the washer is important. If I recall, the size of the washers used on the Turner kit is about the same OD as the built-in factory washer on the OEM bolt.

I'm not a material engineer or scientist, so I would only offer a guess that the material strength, stretch characteristics should all be equivalent to the factory washer.
That's what I figured. The M12 washers I got (and the ones integral to the OE bolt) both measure 24mm OD.
Appreciate 0
      02-04-2011, 09:42 AM   #19
davidtcl
New Member
Malaysia
0
Rep
22
Posts

Drives: Z4 M Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Malaysia

iTrader: (0)

help needed please show in photo location..where to put the 2 washer, i did not get the location.
where you all explane ( a little bit slow )
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2011, 05:36 PM   #20
dorifto88
Major
43
Rep
1,135
Posts

Drives: 88 Nissan Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2010
Location: cowtown

iTrader: (4)

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=413845
Appreciate 0
      02-07-2011, 04:38 AM   #21
davidtcl
New Member
Malaysia
0
Rep
22
Posts

Drives: Z4 M Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Malaysia

iTrader: (0)

thanks dorifto88,
now i got the location with the second picture show on the link.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:40 PM.




zpost
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST