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      01-03-2019, 03:30 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Was just gonna say...long overdue warning.

Their [enforcement of] laws have always been arbitrary and politically motivated.
Then again, the law is arbitrary in most of the world. I wouldn't want to be pulled over in Mexico.......
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      01-03-2019, 04:47 PM   #178
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Then again, the law is arbitrary in most of the world. I wouldn't want to be pulled over in Mexico....... without about $60 cash in my pocket, so I could be found innocent of whatever charge
FTFY
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      01-04-2019, 08:52 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Someone else had a similar idea. It resulted in Pearl Harbor. Didn't work out too well for the Japanese in the end.
lol..for sure. And the result in WWII was we saved their butt.
Probably in a couple of days they would have nothing bigger than a sailboat in their Navy or Merchant Marine..They might have a problem with food and fuel.

I assume that Navel General was just trying to puff out his feathers for Xi
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      01-04-2019, 11:19 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Someone else had a similar idea. It resulted in Pearl Harbor. Didn't work out too well for the Japanese in the end.
lol..for sure. And the result in WWII was we saved their butt.
Probably in a couple of days they would have nothing bigger than a sailboat in their Navy or Merchant Marine..They might have a problem with food and fuel.

I assume that Navel General was just trying to puff out his feathers for Xi
Navel! Now that's funny! Nice work!
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      01-05-2019, 08:20 AM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Someone else had a similar idea. It resulted in Pearl Harbor. Didn't work out too well for the Japanese in the end.
lol..for sure. And the result in WWII was we saved their butt.
Probably in a couple of days they would have nothing bigger than a sailboat in their Navy or Merchant Marine..They might have a problem with food and fuel.

I assume that Navel General was just trying to puff out his feathers for Xi
Navel! Now that's funny! Nice work!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Someone else had a similar idea. It resulted in Pearl Harbor. Didn't work out too well for the Japanese in the end.
lol..for sure. And the result in WWII was we saved their butt.
Probably in a couple of days they would have nothing bigger than a sailboat in their Navy or Merchant Marine..They might have a problem with food and fuel.

I assume that Navel General was just trying to puff out his feathers for Xi
Navel! Now that's funny! Nice work!
A Navel General? Isn't that a type of orange?
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      01-05-2019, 10:20 AM   #182
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https://apple.news/AzTKNJPPhTz2J1aua6PJk1Q
Keanu Reeves' picture among tools in China's crackdown on Uighur minority
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      01-05-2019, 10:58 AM   #183
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https://apple.news/A9zwjMhN0TiWgtctUBm32_
Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

As far as this Chinese navel admiral is concerned, I would think the inverse would be true about taking casualties.
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      01-05-2019, 12:22 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
https://apple.news/A9zwjMhN0TiWgtctUBm32_
Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

As far as this Chinese navel admiral is concerned, I would think the inverse would be true about taking casualties.
It is strikingly like Pre WWII. The Japanese viewed America as a country that wanted peace and really had no stomach for fighting-the people were weak-in their view. Yamamoto had been educated in the U.S. and knew better. Loyalty and culture forced him to do as the ERmperor wanted. Privately he feared it would be the death of his nation.

The Chinese that follow the party line (and many know better) are lock stem into Japanese Pre-WWII thinking. Not to say that they are not even a majority.

And of course this would end up the same way, only it would be quicker. Xi can not survive a significant event like this would bring. And of course the Chinese are in the same boat as the Japanese were in WWII. They have reserves, but not enough.

And the U.S. is now the #1 oil producer (not reserves) ahead of Saudi Arabia/Russia, The largest coal reserves, and theU.S. is #1 in Natural Gas production (not reserves)

I think in many ways Xi is an empty suit.
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      01-10-2019, 03:17 PM   #185
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https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/ea...ning-to-taiwan

So people who support a different point of view in a democratic place with freedom of speech can be considered "war criminals" to China now?
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      01-10-2019, 03:25 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/ea...ning-to-taiwan

So people who support a different point of view in a democratic place with freedom of speech can be considered "war criminals" to China now?
China would love to have that kind of influence worldwide. They seem to be striving to go beyond "1984". I regard the Chinese Communist Party as the greatest evil on our planet today.
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      01-10-2019, 04:22 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/ea...ning-to-taiwan

So people who support a different point of view in a democratic place with freedom of speech can be considered "war criminals" to China now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
China would love to have that kind of influence worldwide. They seem to be striving to go beyond "1984". I regard the Chinese Communist Party as the greatest evil on our planet today.
This is just great, isn't it?

The Communist Party were the original traitors to the [Chinese] Republic and Sun Yat-sen's revolution, and now they want to turn it around by saying that Taiwanese, who currently still practice and hold Sun Yat-sen's democratic-republican ideals dear to their hearts and way of life, as war-criminals?
The majority of Taiwanese are not "separatists" nor do they support Taiwan Independence (in the true political context of the movement), but almost all of them would object to annexation by the PRC.
The current status-quo is an arrangement that most Taiwanese have learned to be "content" with.
If this (wanting to keep a free way of life) qualifies as "treason" or "war-crimes" then the Chinese Communist Party has completely lost their minds.

I mean, I get that history is written by the victors, but that was more-or-less when the world's regions were relatively isolated. A victor in one corner of the world could annihilate a rival tribe and write in their history books that their rivals were savage criminals and deserved to be conquered and nobody on the other side of the world would ever know.

But now, information is free and available throughout the free world.
The more garbage the Chinese Communist Party tries to invent, the more they are putting their own people into a bubble and the more they're going backwards towards the way of North Korea with their legendary fairy tales about how Kim Il-sung was born of an oracle atop the highest Korean mountain while rainbows and unicorns soared through the skies.
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      01-10-2019, 04:28 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Law View Post
But now, information is free and available throughout the free world.
Therein lies the problem, however, (emphasis mine) in that the PRC general public is not part of the free world. As such, history is easily rewritten to such a politically isolated group of people.

When that group of people numbers in the multi-billions, a serious problem has the possibility of arising.
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      01-10-2019, 04:32 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
But now, information is free and available throughout the free world.
Therein lies the problem, however, (emphasis mine) in that the PRC general public is not part of the free world. As such, history is easily rewritten to such a politically isolated group of people.

When that group of people numbers in the multi-billions, a serious problem has the possibility of arising.
It's a real problem, and we're seeing the seeds of it already.

I must've mentioned it somewhere in this thread before, but in academia across the free world, Chinese students and "scholars" have already clashed with professors and other academics at universities and the like.

The type of brainwashing and revisionism that the PRC employs is quickly becoming a weapon (soft power) that will eventually put it at odds with the free world.

The real tragedy is that there are genuine citizens on both sides of the Taiwan Strait that genuinely want reconciliation between both sides (a la German Reunification) but it's this type of rhetoric from Beijing that is creating more of rift between the two sides.
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      01-10-2019, 04:38 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
It's a real problem, and we're seeing the seeds of it already.

I must've mentioned it somewhere in this thread before, but in academia across the free world, Chinese students and "scholars" have already clashed with professors and other academics at universities and the like.

The type of brainwashing and revisionism that the PRC employs is quickly becoming a weapon (soft power) that will eventually put it at odds with the free world.
I missed that comment of yours, but don't doubt it is happening. That is worrisome, as one of the main issues with the DPRK is the dominance of such extensive brainwashing of the masses.

Combined with the external media blackout and prevention of external knowledge bases, this is the real worry behind the long term expectation of the normalization of relations with the DPRK.

When literally the entire country lives in a true alternate reality, you cannot really win 'hearts and minds'. In addition, it creates substantial tactical and strategic military concerns that are probably too detailed to go into in this thread.

To view the possibility of a similar such system within a country as large and powerful as the PRC is frankly terrifying.
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      01-10-2019, 04:47 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
I missed that comment of yours, but don't doubt it is happening. That is worrisome, as one of the main issues with the DPRK is the dominance of such extensive brainwashing of the masses.

Combined with the external media blackout and prevention of external knowledge bases, this is the real worry behind the long term expectation of the normalization of relations with the DPRK.

When literally the entire country lives in a true alternate reality, you cannot really win 'hearts and minds'. In addition, it creates substantial tactical and strategic military concerns that are probably too detailed to go into in this thread.

To view the possibility of a similar such system within a country as large and powerful as the PRC is frankly terrifying.
It's a truly horrifying prospect.
Of course, it's nowhere near the level of the DPRK at the moment, but as I mentioned before, it's regressing towards that direction.

I truly wonder if the PRC's think tanks have ever considered looking at the situation through historical analysis.
If [re]unification is indeed the objective, then one only needs to look no further than the German Reunification and the lives of DPRK defectors in South Korea.
In both cases, there's so much irreversible damage that the DDR and DPRK have done that it takes decades to reverse it.
In the case of Germany, the areas of the former DDR still have different voting patterns and other socioeconomic differences from the West.
Germans who lived through that period can certainly attest to what only four-decades of indoctrination can do to a society/populace.
In the case of DPRK defectors, many are plagued with psychological issues, unemployment, and other problems of assimilating back into normal society.

And of course, in the case of the PRC, externally, due to numbers of scale, you get the real risk of a "clash of civilizations" that are en route for a collision course with the free world.

A very scary prospect indeed.
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      01-10-2019, 05:53 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
It's a real problem, and we're seeing the seeds of it already.

I must've mentioned it somewhere in this thread before, but in academia across the free world, Chinese students and "scholars" have already clashed with professors and other academics at universities and the like.

The type of brainwashing and revisionism that the PRC employs is quickly becoming a weapon (soft power) that will eventually put it at odds with the free world.

The real tragedy is that there are genuine citizens on both sides of the Taiwan Strait that genuinely want reconciliation between both sides (a la German Reunification) but it's this type of rhetoric from Beijing that is creating more of rift between the two sides.
China has numerous "Confucious Institutes" embedded in universities and other influence operations going on within the USA and elsewhere. I think it's great if their purpose is cultural education as they say they are... but their true purpose is to influence public opinion and rewrite history in academia.

As for internal controls and brainwashing... there is the nationalistic patriotic education thing they are promoting and everyone needs to participate. But there is really 2 Chinas within China... There are the people in the major cities with access to good education. They are generally middle class or upper class. They travel internationally for work/education/pleasure and have no interest in politics. Things for them are like most Western countries in that people are materialistic and interested in pursuing wealth. The other China is the people in the rural areas who do not have the same level of wealth and education - they swallow up the communist propaganda wholesale and toe the party line on everything.

It's hard to compare to North Korea... as North Korea has no privately wealthy citizens nor an economy that is thriving. NK citizens are probably more easily brainwashed because of that.
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      01-10-2019, 06:16 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
China has numerous "Confucious Institutes" embedded in universities and other influence operations going on within the USA and elsewhere. I think it's great if their purpose is cultural education as they say they are... but their true purpose is to influence public opinion and rewrite history in academia.

As for internal controls and brainwashing... there is the nationalistic patriotic education thing they are promoting and everyone needs to participate. But there is really 2 Chinas within China... There are the people in the major cities with access to good education. They are generally middle class or upper class. They travel internationally for work/education/pleasure and have no interest in politics. Things for them are like most Western countries in that people are materialistic and interested in pursuing wealth. The other China is the people in the rural areas who do not have the same level of wealth and education - they swallow up the communist propaganda wholesale and toe the party line on everything.

It's hard to compare to North Korea... as North Korea has no privately wealthy citizens nor an economy that is thriving. NK citizens are probably more easily brainwashed because of that.
Yes, agreed.
I'll concede that my comparisons to North Korea were hyperbolic, but I'm mainly speaking of the part where ideologically, the PRC seems to be regressing to its old ways (i.e., Mao), which very much puts the style of revisionism akin to that of the DPRK.

Of course, in practice, yes, their society is pretty much divided into the haves and have nots.
The haves (urban population) live a very similar lifestyle to much of the developed world, take vacations, indulge in materialistic pleasures, and are often educated as well.
The have nots (rural) have seen improvements in quality of life and infrastructure, but live a very basic lifestyle that is still very reliant on the State and its ideology.
You're absolutely correct in saying that the latter group constitutes the basis of the Party's authority. Those are the ones who would be the first to pick up arms in a fight against an adversary and likely the strongest supporters of government policy, since they are 1) less educated overall, and 2) have less overall exposure to the outside world.

Unfortunately, though, the former (the haves) aren't immune to the social consequences of this type of government policy.
Decades of morally corrupt socioeconomic environments prior to the boom and a politicized education system completely devoid of any real culture (in the traditional sense of it) have created a population that is largely oblivious.
Oblivious in many ways but for sure culturally oblivious and politically oblivious. The culturally oblivious urban class, while strong in spending power, still lack the real sophistication, manners, and civilized understanding of many things (i.e., a form of nouveau riche syndrome but arguably worse), due to the destruction of the moral fabric and cultural underpinnings of Chinese society during the Cultural Revolution.
Being politically oblivious means they don't really subscribe staunchly to the Party line since materialism is more important, but this materialism in combination with the "moral corruption" mentioned above becomes opportunism, opportunism that leads to conforming to the Party line to secure connections, career advancement, etc.

Of course, I'm only speaking on a macro-ideological level.
On a personal level, these are fine individuals, but there's a reason the Communist Party insists on an iron grip on Chinese society (i.e., media, social media, enterprises, industries, education, etc.).
You see that even the indifferent urban class, eventually succumbs to the Party, without even realizing it. It's blind leading blind.

Look at it through a different colored lens, and one begins to understand why the Communist Party calls their ideology "socialism with Chinese characteristics". It's no longer Bolshevik-style socialism, it's evolved into an ideology where the growth and development from state-guided capitalism can still be used as a means of State control. There's a hidden hand behind the development that is the Party and State that guides the development in a predetermined ideological direction (i.e., strengthening domestic industries/capabilities through piggybacking and intellectual property theft). It's injecting, where necessary, nationalist sentiment and patriotic ideology of State loyalty in major industries to ensure companies are growing for the benefit of the State. It's embracing the improvements and changes that capitalism brings to a society, but without relinquishing control over the mechanisms that power it.
It's genius and horrifying at the same damn time.
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      01-11-2019, 11:31 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Yes, agreed.
I'll concede that my comparisons to North Korea were hyperbolic, but I'm mainly speaking of the part where ideologically, the PRC seems to be regressing to its old ways (i.e., Mao), which very much puts the style of revisionism akin to that of the DPRK.

Of course, in practice, yes, their society is pretty much divided into the haves and have nots.
The haves (urban population) live a very similar lifestyle to much of the developed world, take vacations, indulge in materialistic pleasures, and are often educated as well.
The have nots (rural) have seen improvements in quality of life and infrastructure, but live a very basic lifestyle that is still very reliant on the State and its ideology.
You're absolutely correct in saying that the latter group constitutes the basis of the Party's authority. Those are the ones who would be the first to pick up arms in a fight against an adversary and likely the strongest supporters of government policy, since they are 1) less educated overall, and 2) have less overall exposure to the outside world.

Unfortunately, though, the former (the haves) aren't immune to the social consequences of this type of government policy.
Decades of morally corrupt socioeconomic environments prior to the boom and a politicized education system completely devoid of any real culture (in the traditional sense of it) have created a population that is largely oblivious.
Oblivious in many ways but for sure culturally oblivious and politically oblivious. The culturally oblivious urban class, while strong in spending power, still lack the real sophistication, manners, and civilized understanding of many things (i.e., a form of nouveau riche syndrome but arguably worse), due to the destruction of the moral fabric and cultural underpinnings of Chinese society during the Cultural Revolution.
Being politically oblivious means they don't really subscribe staunchly to the Party line since materialism is more important, but this materialism in combination with the "moral corruption" mentioned above becomes opportunism, opportunism that leads to conforming to the Party line to secure connections, career advancement, etc.

Of course, I'm only speaking on a macro-ideological level.
On a personal level, these are fine individuals, but there's a reason the Communist Party insists on an iron grip on Chinese society (i.e., media, social media, enterprises, industries, education, etc.).
You see that even the indifferent urban class, eventually succumbs to the Party, without even realizing it. It's blind leading blind.

Look at it through a different colored lens, and one begins to understand why the Communist Party calls their ideology "socialism with Chinese characteristics". It's no longer Bolshevik-style socialism, it's evolved into an ideology where the growth and development from state-guided capitalism can still be used as a means of State control. There's a hidden hand behind the development that is the Party and State that guides the development in a predetermined ideological direction (i.e., strengthening domestic industries/capabilities through piggybacking and intellectual property theft). It's injecting, where necessary, nationalist sentiment and patriotic ideology of State loyalty in major industries to ensure companies are growing for the benefit of the State. It's embracing the improvements and changes that capitalism brings to a society, but without relinquishing control over the mechanisms that power it.
It's genius and horrifying at the same damn time.
I agree that it's genius and horrifying at the same time but it's also their greatest weakness. They are the largest example of groupthink in the history of the world. Even the old Soviet Union wasn't this bad.

Additionally, I believe that they VASTLY overestimate the efficacy of their armed forces both in equipment and doctrine. I'm brought back to the reports of the size, experience and hardness of the old Iraq army. Reported as one of the most fearsome on the planet and would give us a serious contest. We all know how that ended.

Great post, as usual.

Cheers-mk
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      01-12-2019, 07:23 PM   #195
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The saga continues.

Chinese businessman arrested in Poland for spying http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46836377
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      01-13-2019, 11:56 AM   #196
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Russian Poultry is going supplant US sales to China, even though they risk increased cases of Avian Influenza

https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Artic...et-for-poultry
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      01-13-2019, 01:16 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uberschnell View Post
Russian Poultry is going supplant US sales to China, even though they risk increased cases of Avian Influenza

https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Artic...et-for-poultry
Chinese are so used to tainted, unsafe food that this is a non issue.
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      01-14-2019, 12:31 PM   #198
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