FS: GruppeM Intake

[r4gs]

interesting report on the gruppe m. there really isn't much dyno info at all about them with everything else stock. all i do know is, it sounds bloody wicked

[DarkstarZero]

Originally Posted by vicj

Oh, this was years ago, before they even existed probably. Everything else was stock. I was just fishing around to see if I still had the Dyno sheet, but can't find it.
Their "tune" is for their scoops, yes? They don't sell software to use with other manufacturer's intakes, do they?

No, this was the ESS tune, which is supposed to be more adaptive than the OEM ECU for modifications. So basically when it detects increased flow, it compensates accordingly and the end result is increased power.

RPi, the company that makes the scoop, has their own tune which is specifically for their scoop but I don't trust it. ESS spends a lot of time and money on perfecting their tunes whereas I don't think RPi spends as much on R&D.

Also, when you did the dyno, did you do it right after installing or a couple days after? It takes a few miles and cold starts for the ECU to adjust to the difference in flow. Thats why I hate those threads where people swap parts and do dynos one after the other, the ECU doesn't have time to adjust.

[r4gs]

^+1. i needed about 150 miles or so to begin noticing a change in engine tone and throttle response on my oem ecu map.

[vicj]

Originally Posted by DarkstarZero

No, this was the ESS tune, which is supposed to be more adaptive than the OEM ECU for modifications. So basically when it detects increased flow, it compensates accordingly and the end result is increased power.

RPi, the company that makes the scoop, has their own tune which is specifically for their scoop but I don't trust it. ESS spends a lot of time and money on perfecting their tunes whereas I don't think RPi spends as much on R&D.

Also, when you did the dyno, did you do it right after installing or a couple days after? It takes a few miles and cold starts for the ECU to adjust to the difference in flow. Thats why I hate those threads where people swap parts and do dynos one after the other, the ECU doesn't have time to adjust.

My Dyno runs were a month apart.

I don't know about the ESS "tune", but what I know of the adaptive stock "tune" is that whatever you add to the mix, air, fuel changes, etc, the computer adjusts other parameters so that the overall effect of the one change is negated. Power delivery thus remains unchanged. So, the ESS "tune" must be remapping many parameters, not just using an adaptive program. As long as my personal car stays under CPO warranty, I won't be messing with any stock engine control parameters. I learned those lessons the hard way in my M3.

I'm exceptionally wary of ANY manufacturers "Dyno charts", as I can produce one in minutes that can show whatever I want it to show.

Anyway, none of this really matters. Everyone knows already that you change intakes for the sound they generate, not for performance gains. MOST (not all) people buying a GRUPPE M intake are NOT changing their software. With stock parameters, most aftermarket intakes have been shown to actually lose a couple horses. The stock box is pretty well designed. I imagine, never having tried this particular software but having tried many others in my 50 years, that the ESS "tune" would produce similar results with the stock box.

[johanness]

I don't buy it.

Did you actually FEEL the loss? Or are we talking about a dyno sheet showing a 3hp loss? Because the way you made it sound, the thing just sucked the LIFE outta your M.

That is SO little variation, it could be any # of things. Same dyno? Same temp? Etc etc.
Since when does allowing your engine to breathe better amount to less power? Maybe not more, but surely not less. (I hope this doesn't turn into the all encompassing debate about heat soak and air turbulence b.s.) *rolls eyes

[r4gs]

^not tt i'm doubting anything, but apart from the questionable performance benefits of adding an open-style intake, gruppe m's do add an amazing dimension to engine sound.

[vicj]

Originally Posted by johanness

I don't buy it.

Did you actually FEEL the loss? Or are we talking about a dyno sheet showing a 3hp loss? Because the way you made it sound, the thing just sucked the LIFE outta your M.

That is SO little variation, it could be any # of things. Same dyno? Same temp? Etc etc.
Since when does allowing your engine to breathe better amount to less power? Maybe not more, but surely not less. (I hope this doesn't turn into the all encompassing debate about heat soak and air turbulence b.s.) *rolls eyes

I'm not sure why you say I made it sound like it "sucked the life out of my M", I made no such reference. One doesn't "feel" a 3-4 HP loss. Of course not. It was from the Dyno. That's one reason the runs were a month apart, we wanted to ensure the best we could that all variables were the same as the base run, including temp and humidity outside. Of course, other variables can play a factor, but we did the best we could to minimize that. That's all we can ever do, the best we can. The runs were NOT conducted in a clean room, with an environmentally controlled atmosphere, and people WERE even standing in different places in the room the second time! You never know, the breath from some of them may have effected the results.

It's not just me, do some research. there are a LOT of posts, and even some white papers written by some very well informed BMW specialists that will tell you the same thing. With everything else stock, the stock air box is optimized for engine performance. I'm not saying don't add an aftermarket air box...just know the reason your buying it: Sound. Not performance. I LOVED the way it sounded...I just wasn't willing to modify my car to make LESS HP, no matter how little less it was, and no matter how cool the sound was and the part looked. But that's just me. If you enjoy the sounds the intake makes, and they are VERY nice sounds, and don't stay awake nights worrying about the loss of a couple ponies you will no doubt never feel, then by all means, put it on. Nothing wrong with that at all.

So, no, I'm not trying to get into a technical discussion about intakes. Those that love to modify their cars eternally will continue to do so, and will never be convinced otherwise by any amount of evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, provided on a chat board. . I choose to actually do a LOT of research first, modify very judiciously, and then test things in the real world. I'm not afraid to be wrong, and often am, and not afraid to UN-Modify when needed, no matter what I spent. In this case, it was no issue, as I was able to find a young kid to take the intake off my hands for more than I originally paid.

[ZStig]

naaaaah

[johanness]

Originally Posted by vicj

I just wasn't willing to modify my car to make LESS HP, no matter how little less it was, and no matter how cool the sound was and the part looked.

Yah no. You see, I go by the way the car FEELS, and not some 3hp discrepancy on a dyno chart.
I wouldn't give up the enhanced throttle response and top end power my CAI gives me for all the tea in China; forget the sound.
But to each their own. But for all your said meticulousness... logic would dictate that u checked online in advance of a $1000 purchase that was so plainly evident to be a bunk mod. Weird.

Anyhow, happy for your sale.

[ZStig]

[johanness]

[DarkstarZero]

Originally Posted by johanness

logic would dictate

[vicj]

Originally Posted by johanness

Yah no. You see, I go by the way the car FEELS, and not some 3hp discrepancy on a dyno chart.
I wouldn't give up the enhanced throttle response and top end power my CAI gives me for all the tea in China; forget the sound.
But to each their own. But for all your said meticulousness... logic would dictate that u checked online in advance of a $1000 purchase that was so plainly evident to be a bunk mod. Weird.

Anyhow, happy for your sale.

We all have to learn sometime. This was one of the purchases, along with many suspension modifications, that shaped the buying habits I have NOW...not then. Again, I'm not saying it's a bad mod or anything...just that is loses a couple ponies. As I said, it sounds great, and looks great. But performance gains...nope. I'm not a hater, it's just a fact. Less horsepower with the Gruppe M, as long as everything else remains stock. Flame me all you like, that fact won't change.

[johanness]

Originally Posted by vicj

it's just a fact. Less horsepower with the Gruppe M, as long as everything else remains stock.

I'm really glad I'm not stock then.

Hey, can you point me to the dyno shop where u had your before/after done? Because I need one that provides a ZERO +/- variation. You know, because a 5ºC inaccuracy in air temperature can lead to a 0.9% change in power figures. And a 3 mBar (normal range 900 to 1050 mBar) inaccuracy in barometric pressure give a 1% change in power.

Just sayin

[vicj]

Sigh. As I said, you can only TRY to duplicate the conditions. This has all become quite pointless. Good luck with the sale. I should have just kept my mouth shut, as usual.

[jair_onsa]

do you need a software along with the intake in order to see a hp gain?

[jair_onsa]

i got really confused after looking at all the comments, im planing on getting an aftermarket intake, will i lose hp? increase it? or just get a really nice sound?

[SSSnakeman]

Originally Posted by vicj

We all have to learn sometime. This was one of the purchases, along with many suspension modifications, that shaped the buying habits I have NOW...not then. Again, I'm not saying it's a bad mod or anything...just that is loses a couple ponies. As I said, it sounds great, and looks great. But performance gains...nope. I'm not a hater, it's just a fact. Less horsepower with the Gruppe M, as long as everything else remains stock. Flame me all you like, that fact won't change.

Funny seeing this discussion. I used to be on e46fanatics a good bit a few years ago. For a while the GruppeM intake was a kind of must have mod for the e46 M3. I remember at some point people did dynos etc and found out there was no performance gain. Lots of discussion about low end torque, replacing the stock airbox and noticing a gain or what have you. The GruppeM (I think there were replicas as well) became less popular. I only joined this site because I'm looking for a Z4MC but one of the very first things I noticed was that a lot of guys had the GruppeM. My thought was "wow, they still sell those?" Anyway, maybe people still buy them for their M3s too but I just remember that time when the enthusiasm for the GruppeM was so high and then diminished rather quickly.

[DarkstarZero]

Originally Posted by SSSnakeman

Funny seeing this discussion. I used to be on e46fanatics a good bit a few years ago. For a while the GruppeM intake was a kind of must have mod for the e46 M3. I remember at some point people did dynos etc and found out there was no performance gain. Lots of discussion about low end torque, replacing the stock airbox and noticing a gain or what have you. The GruppeM (I think there were replicas as well) became less popular. I only joined this site because I'm looking for a Z4MC but one of the very first things I noticed was that a lot of guys had the GruppeM. My thought was "wow, they still sell those?" Anyway, maybe people still buy them for their M3s too but I just remember that time when the enthusiasm for the GruppeM was so high and then diminished rather quickly.

There's only 2 intakes for the Z4M, the GruppeM and the AFe, that's it. GruppeM looks and sounds better, the end.

Originally Posted by jair_onsa

i got really confused after looking at all the comments, im planing on getting an aftermarket intake, will i lose hp? increase it? or just get a really nice sound?

You'll get a nice sound, thats it. Pair it with the RPi scoop and ESS tune and you may see 10-15hp at 80+ MPH. Add headers and you're looking at a total of around 30hp. But by itself, just sound.

[jair_onsa]

that was the clear answer i was looking for, thanks.