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05-03-2019, 03:55 PM | #67 | |||
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That said SMG isn't smooth ever. PDK can be. Porsche doesn't bother with PDK in its race cars either btw. They use sequentials to save weight and shift fast. SMGs main weakness was the slow computer paired to it. A modern DCT will process the shift much faster even if the shift itself is slower than the SMG |
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05-03-2019, 06:12 PM | #68 |
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Be wary of the BMW quoted 65ms from the E60 M5 intro marketing material. On the M5board many years ago, that claim was investigated and found to not include what others, like Ferrari, claim consists of a "shift." Ferrari and others quote power transfer to power transfer time interval, and apparently BMW was quoting just the shift time not the entire power transfer cycle (which of course is the one that is most useful). There were owners who datalogged their cars to get to the bottom of that claim and found something more like 150ms from what I recall. There are threads on the E60 section about the whole deal.
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05-03-2019, 08:19 PM | #69 | |
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If you look what advances bmw made with the launch of the e30 M3, E36 M3 (the euro spec that is), the e46 M3 and to some extend the e90 M3, with use of race tech technology, compared with that the f82 m4 got overshadowed by quite a few competing models (I name for instance a giulia QV that made mince meat from it on the track etc....) I mean with all previous m3's, bmw broke records and set the competition at a far distance: - e30 M3: high revving engine with individual throttlebodies - E36 M3 eurospec: High revving itb i6 with 320bhp in 1995: the closest competition was about 80HP behind. 6 speed gearbox (in 1995!), SMG transmission (now dated, but again, this was in 1995!) - E46 M3: Factory fitted with semi floating brake rotors. Variable M diff (newly patented). Awesome CSL version with carbon roof and high flow all carbon intake+I believe alpha N This was all tech that wasn't really available on competing cars. Maybe high end porsches (turbo or gt3 but I dont call that competing) -e90 M3: high revving v8, DCT (but by this time cars like the R8 also got similar engines and of course gearboxes) All the tech on the f80 m3 had imho already been done by the competition years before. The f80 was late on the scene and multiple cars already were available with torque vectoring diffs or all carbon brakes. Or turbo engines for that matter (imho these are the 3 major new tech differences compared to m3 predecessors. So yes, imho in the early 80's to mid 90's bmw was leaps ahead with their m3's, in the early 2000's they still had an advantage on the competition (e46 era) and after that the competition caught up and by the time the f80 came, the competition had surpassed bmw M techwise. And when M cars get an automatic (slushbox style), the M part will be gone. Because what about weight. Engineering explained says so proudly that the zf8 is even lighter than its 6 speed automatic predecessor. That is not a very interesting argument if you say that its still a whopping 100lbs heavier or thereabout than a manual 6 speed Didnt hear Jason about that...... I mean the zf8 is a very nice bit of tech, but its not all glory. BTW if one is really interested how the ZF8 really works or any other modern automatic gearbox (mercedes 9 speed, aisin, CVT etc etc), there is a channel called weber auto on youtube with a guy in a wheelchair who is a teacher on some automotive tech faculty (university) that really goes into depth on how these transmissions work. He also takes them apart in his videos (they are an hour long or so, so its quite an intensive watch on a high technical level, so ment for the automotive geeks, but I think its pretty much youtube at its best, apart from catvideos....) Mind you this is a guy that can also make an hour long video where he talks just about universal joints, so be prepared what you're getting into, its more than engineering explained³
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Last edited by GuidoK; 05-03-2019 at 08:49 PM.. |
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05-04-2019, 10:30 AM | #70 |
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F80 was my first non-MT car. I've grown to love the DCT (with mapping). the performance is fantastic. recently I've started to purposely shift while coming out of corners on the throttle. the shifts are so fast/smooth it does not even cause traction lost.
the ZF8 in my wife's BMW is quite nice though. the one in my friend's jeep is horrible!!! electronics replaced once already. I recall enjoying the chirps when I shifted as a younger man but they are behind me now. if I can't get the next BMW with DCT I'm switching to porsche for sure.
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05-05-2019, 12:29 AM | #71 | ||
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So probably you are right, they're burning inventory of DCT's
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05-05-2019, 11:19 PM | #72 | ||||
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The M5 was like driving an Abrams tank. I could feel everything on the road (in a good way), suspension was superb (nice and stiff), steering was tight, brakes were spot on. Car was absolutely immaculate inside and out with 40K on the odometer. Ultimately, it was heavy with a feel of minimal agility. However, the car just wouldn't "go", I literally asked the driver, this is fully mashed? He's like ya, fast, right? No. I needed to get behind the wheel. So I did, and it was just mediocre at best, it really was. I don't mean this in any rude, insulting way whatsoever to anyone who owns one, but I was just turned off by it all. The engineer in me loves the concept of the SMG and how it works, why it works etc...but it just seems dead with this other technology amongst us now. Then, I began researching more about the V10, naturally aspirated vs. turbo vehicles, why power comes in at different times, and it really occurred to me that with a boosted motor, the vehicle behaves differently. Coupled to the correct transmission, makes for a pleasant combined and complementary experience. I can obviously "rip" through the gears with the ZF and launch control in my POS 320i, the SMG was just constant whiplash back and forth on every gear change, I screwed with all of the DriveLogic settings, adjusted my driving style to nail the shifts, the shifting was insanely slow! Granted, I need to read into your entire post, but from what I can gather, it seems like these old school trans are just dead? So what's the point of my post, not completely sure, HOWEVER, I ended up picking out a 340i, and I pick that up tomorrow, massively stoked to be stepping up in the rankings, so I guess that is cool. |
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05-06-2019, 01:23 AM | #73 | |
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The dual clutch in the F series M5 and M6 is wonderful though. Go for a drive in one
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05-06-2019, 01:59 AM | #74 |
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The way BMW adapts the ZF8 makes it far better than ANY other auto trans. PDK excluded. ZF8 it’s the best auto on the road and the way BMW tunes it to perform is by far the best all around in terms of shift quality/performance and how well it behaves in automatic mode. It downshifts EXACTLY when you ask it to, and hold revs very well given the driving mode you enagage. I’ve driven everything from new Mercs/AMGS, Jags, range rovers , Audi, Alfa’s and New X5/X7/ X3M. I’d have searched for a competitor to bmws ZF8s and nothing comes close. The way BMW tunes it is far superior to others on the road and it’s clear if you switch from a BMW ZF8 to another ZF8.
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05-06-2019, 03:24 AM | #75 |
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However, from reading the thread, there also seem to be different generations / software versions of the ZF8 on BMW, so maybe only the latest generation is that good?
E.g. people seem to imply that F30 pre/post LCI have different versions and the newer one performs (much?) better. |
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05-06-2019, 06:10 AM | #76 | |
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This is true. A decent amount of POST LCI Fxx cars came with the “sport auto ZF8” as standard which is again a step ahead of the regular one. Although I believe this was mostly F3x/F10 LCI. I want to say MY2016 was the yea but not sure |
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05-06-2019, 06:18 AM | #77 |
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However, the ZF8 in my 13’ 328i is still running strong and reacts well. And it has been put through 160,000 miles so far. Totally different animal to the sport auto I was referring to. It’s night and day between the two. I still drive new cars that don’t feel as good as early F30s.
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05-08-2019, 07:46 PM | #78 | |
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05-08-2019, 11:57 PM | #79 | ||
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05-09-2019, 05:35 AM | #80 |
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I think the E60 also default powers on in its lower power mode too? You have to press the power button to allow the throttles to fully open. The S85 is a beast of a motor like the video shows.
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05-13-2019, 08:16 PM | #81 |
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These tranny's look ver expensive to replace, the current m4 7 speed's DCT are already cost of one or two kidney's itself.. unless they can make a bullet proof Tranny.. count me out..
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05-14-2019, 07:46 AM | #82 |
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One in my 2011 n52 528i and one in my 2010 LR4. Awesome box. Still not a manual. But the only trans I would go with if I could not have a manual.
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05-23-2019, 12:06 PM | #83 |
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Probably one of the best in-depth articles about the ZF 8 I've seen is here, with a description of each gear ratio and how it's achieved: https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...eed-automatic/
It's very math heavy, and 5th gear may surprise you! |
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05-23-2019, 03:36 PM | #86 |
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Yup. Probably drove in 400 HP mode the whole time. You actually have to go into the settings and set the "M" button up so when you hit it, it puts you in 507 HP mode.
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