Camber, Strut shim kit quick question.

[Punko]

What is the better option?

stock suspension, spirited driving, occasional track school. I don't want over steer.

Stock:

Front Camber......... -1*00' +/-20'.... -1*20'/-0*40'...... -1.33*/-.67*
Front Total Toe In... 0*10' +/-06'..... 0*16'/ 0*04'......... .27*/.07* ......... .085"/.022" (18" wheel)
Rear Camber.......... -1*50' +/-15'..... -2*05'/-1*35' .... -2.08*/-1.58*
Rear Total Toe In... 0*28' +/-06'...... 0*34'/ 0*22' ...... .57*/.37*........... .180"/.117" (18" wheel)




Option #1
Install shim kit between strut and spindle.
Take the car to an alignment shop.
Front -1.3*, .031" total toe in
Rear -2.1*, .062" total toe in

Mark the location of the 3x nuts after the alignment.
Lift car.
Loosen three nuts and push strut towards engine.
Drive to track.
Enjoy
Drive home
Lift car
Loosen three nuts and push back to alignment marks.
Drive to work.

Expect moving the strut will change to -2.3* and perhaps a bit of toe out.
If the alignment can be obtained with the assembly pin in place could I reinstall to ensure back to alignment spec?

Option#2
Take the car to an alignment shop.
Front -1.3*, .031" total toe in
Rear -2.1*, .062" total toe in

Ensure the shim washers are all the exact same thickness. If required I can grind the surfaces flat and within .001 of each other.
Lift car
Install shims
Drive to track
Enjoy
Drive home
Remove shims
Drive to work.

Expect adding the shims will result in -2.3*.
Will adding the shims result in toe in or toe out?

Option #3
Install shim kit between strut and spindle.
Take the car to an alignment shop.
Front -2.3*, 0 total toe in
Rear -2.1*, .062" total toe in

Leave it alone.


Which is the best option?

Can adding shims that are equal upset the alignment?

Thanks.

[inTgr8r]

Option 2 would be a real PITA.
Changing shim bolts is not one of my favorite jobs.

Sliding the tower top works much better.
If you slide in for track it will give you a little toe out, also good for track.

I think JMillet uses this method.
He has posted his set up several times.

[Kgolf31]

Align it, leave it alone.

Be warned, you'll turn the car into oversteer happy.

[Finnegan]

Here's The Hack's post back in October 2010.

I've run -2.7 with a bit of toe-out on the track since my third track day. Using Option 1. I'm by no means an expert, but at -2.7 front with a bit of toe-out, and -1.7 rear with some toe-in I've had no issues with "oversteer". And there's a hell of a lot less wear on the outside edge of the tire at the track. Subsequent alignments have shown that after putting the settings back to street I'm pretty close to where it started. .1 or so off in camber, 1/32 at most off in toe.

Running -1.7 if you're an intermediate or advanced driver is going to eat a lot more tire on 4 or 5 sessions than -2.7. And being off a minuscule bit on resetting the alignment is also peanuts to the wear difference 4 or 5 track days/year would make at a lower (-1.7) negative camber setting on the outside of the tires IMO.

Now, if you were to get overly happy with trail-braking (or otherwise not manage your weight transfer effectively) yes, I suppose you could loop the car with the suggested settings. But that wouldn't really be from excessive front negative camber, it would be a driver induced issue. (IMO, the car handles more predictably with more negative camber in front, but that's just me.)

Running with SeanK at with a 265 square set-up (IIRC, might have been 255 front), at -3.0 plus front, the car did get a bit tail-happy. (But that's w/o the stock stagger and with a lot of negative camber.) But a bit of adjustment on with the turn-in point and speed, and moving weight to the rear earlier after the transition in the corner transition resolved that. After that, there wasn't much to be excited about.

I think the OP has quite a few track days under his belt, so I think Option I and his street/track settings mix would good choice in settings for him. First time out at the track or first few track days? Yes, a more understeer (stock like) oriented set-up would probably be a wiser choice.

OP, Camber Plates are of course another option.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Here's The Hack's post back in October 2010.

I've run -2.7 with a bit of toe-out on the track since my third track day. I'm by no means an expert and still a noob, but at -2.7 front with a bit of toe-out, and -1.7 rear with some toe-in I've had no issues with "oversteer".

Now, if you were to get overly happy with trail-braking (or otherwise not manage your weight transfer effectively) yes, I suppose you could loop the car. But that wouldn't really be from excessive front negative camber, it would be a driver induced issue.

Running with SeanK at with a 265 square set-up (IIRC, might have been 255 front), at -3.0 plus front, the car did get a bit tail-happy. (But that's w/o the stock stagger and with a lot of negative camber.) But a bit of adjustment on with the turn-in point and speed, and moving weight to the rear earlier after the transition in the corner transition resolved that. After that, there wasn't much to be excited about.

I think the OP has quite a few track days under his belt, so I don't think these would be a bad choice in settings for him. First time out at the track or first few track day? Yes, a more understeer (stock like) oriented set-up might be a wiser choice.

I've experienced oversteer on my car (-2.3, 0 Toe Front and -1.3, 1/16th Toe Rear). I've had the rear maxed out, which I still don't understand why -1.3 is all I can get.

I guess I'm coming from an auto-x aspect where I trail brake alot...etc, etc. Track, yes that is completely a different story. My car felt really solid at Mid-O.

Here is my oversteer from my first event where I did my alignment and new brakes.

[Finnegan]

I'm still at work (and clearly not being productive), and can't view that. Will look later.

Yes, totally agree that AutoX and track are totally different. Heavy trail braking, lifting off mid-corner, etc. are all AutoXer tools. My first AutoX I succeeded in looping the car. And yup, it was my fault (didn't make that mistake again).

Wow, you got -1.3 rear with a stock suspension and w/o adjustable LCAs? My shop hasn't been able to get less than -1.5. Do you find that helps put down more power faster mid and late corner for AutoX?

I've played with lower and higher negative camber settings rear, and find it's a trade off to how much power I can put down (and when in the corner) vs. speed early and mid-corner. I've compromised at -1.7 rear with the same toe settings as you.

Slower entry and good line, plus being able to get back on the throttle sooner/more seems to work best at this point with moderate rear negative camber. Given where my skills are, this is the best for me at the moment. I'm not at a point where I'm focused on entry and mid-corner speed as much as a good line + smoothness off/on the throttle/brake and transition between brake/throttle (combined with other fun things like regressive braking). It may also all come down to driving style/preference as well. Mine is still a work in progress....

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

I'm still at work (and clearly not being productive), and can't view that. Will look later.

Yes, totally agree that AutoX and track are totally different. Heavy trail braking, lifting off mid-corner, etc. are all AutoXer tools. My first AutoX I succeeded in looping the car. And yup, it was my fault (didn't make that mistake again).

Wow, you got -1.3 rear with a stock suspension and w/o adjustable LCAs? My shop hasn't been able to get less than -1.5. Do you find that helps put down more power faster mid and late corner for AutoX?

I've played with lower and higher negative camber settings rear, and find it's a trade off to how much power I can put down (and when in the corner) vs. speed early and mid-corner. I've compromised at -1.7 rear with the same toe settings as you.

Slower entry and good line, plus being able to get back on the throttle sooner/more seems to work best at this point with moderate rear negative camber. Given where my skills are, this is the best for me at the moment. I'm not at a point where I'm focused on entry and mid-corner speed as much as a good line + smoothness off/on the throttle/brake and transition between brake/throttle (combined with other fun things like regressive braking). It may also all come down to driving style/preference as well. Mine is still a work in progress....

I ideally wanted more negative camber. Pre-Alignment specs, the rear camber was at -0.5*!!!!! They maxed out the camber and it barely got into spec (Spec rear calls for -1.3 to -2.0).

So, ideally I lost some ability to power down in the rear, I want to be around the same setting you are...but for some reason the shop can't get that into my preferred spec. I think the car has been better in terms of overall corner speed, but more camber is what I want.

[Finnegan]

Punko, sorry for going and things a bit.

Hopefully there are some post that are helpful here.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Here is my oversteer from my first event where I did my alignment and new brakes.

If you have telemetry, it will be easier to determine whether or not my assessment is correct. But it looked to me like it's lift-throttle oversteer, when you entered the prior slalom at too high of a speed causing the car to momentarily understeer...And you might have breathed off of the throttle for a split second too long causing the rear end to come around.

Of course, not being there in person and without throttle position it would just be a wild guess.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by The HACK

If you have telemetry, it will be easier to determine whether or not my assessment is correct. But it looked to me like it's lift-throttle oversteer, when you entered the prior slalom at too high of a speed causing the car to momentarily understeer...And you might have breathed off of the throttle for a split second too long causing the rear end to come around.

Of course, not being there in person and without throttle position it would just be a wild guess.

You could be true. That was awhile ago so i forgot exactly what happened. I've caused alot of throttle oversteer as well to rotate the rear end...especially in the wet but that's more so just not having traction. Cold tires though on every autox course for my first run it was oversteer happy...alot. once they heated up it did calm down a bit.

Point being, i need more rear camber but cant figure out why i can only get -1.3

Here's a good video of what I mean with throttle oversteer. Coming out of the slow left hander after the lane changes and powering out of the slalom.

[exdos]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Point being, i need more rear camber but cant figure out why i can only get -1.3

This might answer your question. You can adjust the rear toe angle in 2 ways:
1. the trailing arm can be moved by undoing the three bolts just in front of the wheel arch under the cill.
2. rotating the eccentric bolt on the hub, which also adjusts the rear wheel camber.

I would suggest that rear camber is not just a function of the position of the eccentric bolt, but also a function of the rear toe angle. So, it might be worth experimenting with the the two different methods of toe adjustment in order to maximise the camber?

[Punko]

Thanks for all the posts, much, much appreciated.

"Running -1.7 if you're an intermediate or advanced driver is going to eat a lot more tire on 4 or 5 sessions than -2.7. And being off a minuscule bit on resetting the alignment is also peanuts to the wear difference 4 or 5 track days/year would make at a lower (-1.7) negative camber setting on the outside of the tires IMO."

This is very true. I went to two driving schools this year and the outside edge of the front tires are just about done.

I am not too concerned about changing the front settings. Slight change when compared to stock toe settings. Decreasing the front toe in will allow the car to turn in more aggressively but the change is marginal compared to stock. Camber should improve track tire wear, marginal decrease in braking capability, maybe a bit more wear during regular driving with .031 toe.

However, I am concerned about changing the rear toe. Decreasing rear toe in will make the car more likely to spin.

Are the OEM specs in my original post accurate? Appears to be a drastic change in toe.

Is toe measured with angles or distance?

Again, thanks for the posts, information and experience. \

This is what my plan is now.

Install shim kit between strut and spindle.
Take the car to an alignment shop.
Front -2.0, 0.031 total toe in
Rear -2.1, .470 total toe in...try to max rear camber to gain more corner grip.

If I go to a training day I will push the front strut towards the motor to gain more -camber and toe out.

Let me know what you think.

[Finnegan]

Yes, you had the correct range for rear toe in your first post.

Reference Jmillet's post about stock settings for the ///M if you want to double check. You'll find the stock range for rear toe in that post as well as other info on stock settings.

Your experience during DEs with tire wear is exactly why I went the direction I have. @-2.7 or so for track days the tire wear is much more even. I also prefer having more than the outside of the tire doing work for me.

[Punko]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Reference Jmillet's post about stock settings for the ///M if you want to double check. You'll find the stock range for rear toe in that post as well as other info on stock settings.

In this post he suggests rear toe of .500 not .062 which is within the stock recommended toe.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Punko

In this post he suggests rear toe of .500 not .062 which is within the stock recommended toe.

Find out what the measurement is taken in, wether it's .500º of total toe, vs. .062" of total toe...Which may end up being the same or nearly the same measurement.

[Punko]

Thanks, didn't notice the units....

Got my spacers today...$10 from Fastenal.

All washers were .0937" thick +/-.001

Bolts: M12-1.75x25mm DIN933 Class 10.9 Zinc cap screws.

Washers: 24x M12 DIN 125 Steel Yellow Zinc 200 HV Flat washers.

[Punko]

So I want high speed stability, better front turn in and less front tire wear.

This is what I will ask for, ask them to aim for nominal value.

Try to keep rear camber .5* less than front camber.

I am afraid that reducing rear toe in will remove high speed stability in turns.

I think I may reduce front camber a bit more, not sure.

Thanks


Front Camber......... -2*00' +/-20'.... -2*20'/-1*40'...... -2.33*/-1.67*

Front Total Toe In... 0*06' +/-06'..... 0*12'/ 0*00'......... .20*/.00* ......... .063"/.000" (18" wheel)

Rear Camber.......... -1*50' +/-15'..... -2*05'/-1*35' .... -2.08*/-1.58*

Rear Total Toe In... 0*28' +/-06'...... 0*34'/ 0*22' ...... .57*/.37*........... .180"/.117" (18" wheel)