Advice Needed: Cracked Block and Piston Head

[Westersund]

It's nice that they will rebuild the engine and all, but if they would have been thorough they wouldn't have to. Even if it's the machine shops fault, they sent your stuff to them and didn't double check everything before assembly. If you want something done right you do it yourself or at least double check if the job was done correctly.

I feel for you.

Edit: I thought our cars warned about overheating (coolant). Faulty sensor?

[Beedub]

speechless tbh....

[bignosejim]

Are they using the same machine shop they originally used? If there were metal pieces (from bearings) floating around they will need to make sure all the oil passages are clear including a new oil cooler. I think I would be pushing for new crankshaft, pistons, etc.

[pokeybritches]

I would buy a lottery ticket. You've used up all your bad luck.

[wdb]

I don't understand how a bad crankshaft causes all of the coolant to disappear. I'm kinda wondering what was the cause and what was the effect. Chicken/egg.

[Jroc]

Damn

[Arsonism]

Originally Posted by dbarton62

Man, if you didn't have bad luck.

Sounds like the shop is a stand up place.
Good luck.

In a lot of cases I feel like this is hearing about someone's bad relationship. People think "why would you ever be wth that person?!" or "how did that ever become a thing?" My point being that I hope that y'all see they do try to do by right by me, but unfortunately y'all do only hear the bad. All of this has been bad no matter what, but there have been massive exceptions.

Originally Posted by SaltyNC

Dang, I was feeling sick on my stomach reading your story. I can only imagine the roller coaster of emotions you experienced. I'm glad they provided a loaner, and hope your luck is going to make a turn for the better from here out.

Salty

Thanks Salty, I can't imagine a whole lot else is going to go south from here, but I'm definitely still knocking on wood.

Originally Posted by NickyC

This is one of the most disgusting, revolting stories I have ever read in years of reading nightmare stories on the internet. All of this happens because you tried to do the sensible thing and replace your bearings as maintenance. This is so sick.

I don't know what else to say except be sure to get whatever that shop promises you in writing immediately. We're talking real money here (I think you said over $16k?), and emotions get the best of everyone. What they said in the moment might be entirely different than what they tell you in a couple days, especially when they've had time to think about it and realization of the money hit comes.

Get it all in writing immediately.

We are actually further north than 16, I hadn't included the new oil cooler at that point and a few ther bits and pieces. I'll get them to write something up here soon, my only fear is that when I go by and do that the other shop owner (because it's a partnership) will lose his mind because he only works on financials and not cars. The last time I talked with him we went from a payment plan to catch up on the car to pay in full. I wound up extending the equity on my loan because I had paid down a lot of it when I first purchased the vehicle. It's still holding 29k for the equity so that was cool!

Originally Posted by Westersund

It's nice that they will rebuild the engine and all, but if they would have been thorough they wouldn't have to. Even if it's the machine shops fault, they sent your stuff to them and didn't double check everything before assembly. If you want something done right you do it yourself or at least double check if the job was done correctly.

I feel for you.

Edit: I thought our cars warned about overheating (coolant). Faulty sensor?

They do, we get a red light on the dash displaying coolant. Although this didn't light up until after the motor went down. I think that you can see this if you turn the key to accessory.

I agree on them talking with he machine shop to try to come to an agreement, however they didn't seem to get anywhere. He should have doubled checked everything but he admits that he didn't. He has used the machine shop for long enough that he's built enough trust with them and felt t wasn't necessary (is how it was expressed). I was thinking it was just the head because they didn't feel the need to resurface it. Turns out it was a lot more.

Originally Posted by Beedub

speechless tbh....

Yeah I have no clue what's going on anymore. Life is weird.

Originally Posted by bignosejim

Are they using the same machine shop they originally used? If there were metal pieces (from bearings) floating around they will need to make sure all the oil passages are clear including a new oil cooler. I think I would be pushing for new crankshaft, pistons, etc.

We replaced all of the oil flow components before from the pumps to the lines everything has been replaced. Even the cooler itself. They will likely reuse all of those components because they essentially are brand new. I know he will clean and flush them before reassembly, but he is coming out of pocket and those have already been replaced. Should anything else show up or go wrong, I will revisit with them about it at that time I think.

The machine shop has volunteered to do the work again, for free to the shop. They are going to take it to another race motor machine shop in Austin to get it looked over and measured again. He will then measure it once more himself before putting the motor back together.

I thought about pushing for new components. They price out to around 7,000 which I do not have any reserve to put towards the car. The crank and rods were old components along with the head that I don't have replaced or bought new. Do you think they should be replaced as new components regardless? I couldn't decide if that was the right course of action or not. I'm kind of just happy they're trying at all to rebuild it again and I don't have any costs for it. But that's why I come here, I haven't been through this and all advice is welcome.

Bottom line. I just want to do it right.

Originally Posted by wdb

I don't understand how a bad crankshaft causes all of the coolant to disappear. I'm kinda wondering what was the cause and what was the effect. Chicken/egg.

I was told it over pressurized the cylinder (again) and this caused the failure as that pressure pushed out the crank the first time it broke down. I could be wrong but that would break the seals for that cylinder flooding or mixing the coolant. Y'all might know better than me though.

[Arsonism]

Originally Posted by pokeybritches

I would buy a lottery ticket. You've used up all your bad luck.

You know I had a friend I lived with in college, he got a speeding ticket while I was at work. He called me on my personal phone and was raving. He told me he was coming in. He explained that he just got pulled over, for speeding... In a school zone... That was under construction... And he wasn't wearing a seatbelt.

The officer wrote the wrong date. It was thrown out. He bought one, but it didn't go anywhere haha.

Maybe this is the opposite?

[Vanne]

Man, Shane... holy cows mate.. I dont know what to say man, reading your last couple of posts sure as heck didnt expect to be reading that...

Man, seriously just glad your ok mate and that nothing happened to you mate. Sometimes shit just happens and id recon thats probably enough shit for a while for you, id be , as suggested before, buying a lottery ticket mate.

Far out, still cant believe it man..

Let us know if there is anything we can help with mate.

[inTgr8r]

Damn!
No friggin way; can scarcely believe your last couple of posts.

Dang; how does The Ray Charles song go? .....if not for bad luck you'd have no luck at all.

Things just have to go better soon

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Arsonism

They do, we get a red light on the dash displaying coolant. Although this didn't light up until after the motor went down. I think that you can see this if you turn the key to accessory.

The coolant light lights up as soon as the reservoir is about half empty or so. By then there is still 4 litres or so in the engine, so it must have been lit for some time. Unless everything poored in the engine at once, but that looks like a huge cloud of smoke (the size that no one up to 100 yards can see anything, quite spectacular, seen it once)

But also the size/specs of the crank dont add up. Once you use a crank (especially one that has been polished or grinded), you have to measure each diameter (and check the oil flow path ), because you have to order the bearings according to that diameter (there are 2 diameters available I think)
So somewhere in the process that must have been done. Or they might have ordered the wrong bearings?
I hope your block can be saved again. If it has heatened to seizure it can be warped beyond repair.

If the coolant is gone, it sounds to me like a bad headgasket install or maybe a crack in the cylinder head (was it vacuum tested?)
If the car overheats due to exessive wear and friction in the crank department, you'd notice by running, and the damage will be severe.

It's a strange combination of events this. I hope the shop will keep their end of the deal regarding the warranty and can get it fixed.
First thing I'd do is ditch the tune and go for stock. If the car then runs fine you can always install the tune, but on a newly build engine you'd want to be able to diagnose if anything goes wrong. If you have a tune, that adds a huge uncertainty.

[Arsonism]

I don't believe my coolant light ever perked on, I just saw the light as I turned the key again. There was no sign of over heating through the power down and seizing of the motor.

He mentioned some sizes and specifications regarding the crank but I'm unsure of what he actually said. He spewed it out faster than I could understand. They didn't have a machine there to grind down that crank though. He just informed me that it was warped when he pulled it out after the second incident.

I don't know what has happened entirely with the block, they seem to think it's ok but I'm not certain and I haven't seen any proof.

Thank you, seriously, for all your input Guido. It is always very informative and on point.

[Westersund]

Originally Posted by Arsonism

They do, we get a red light on the dash displaying coolant. Although this didn't light up until after the motor went down. I think that you can see this if you turn the key to accessory.

This is a little discomforting, if the light comes on after it's already too late it's no point having it. But maybe the temperature escalated quickly after the coolant was gone so that might be why it lit up so late?

[SaltyNC]

I can't remember where, but I read something about a similar issue where the coolant sensor was completely out of the coolant in air, and it never registered that it was overheating.

Salty

[StickMon]

Originally Posted by Beedub

speechless tbh....

Me too. We're pullin' for you buddy.

[bignosejim]

Was your original failure (the cracked cylinder wall) and this one (#3 main/journal bearings) on the same cylinder? If they were, I would not use that cylinder head again. I'm no expert but that seems like too much of a coincidence to have a 'not too common' failure occur in a cylinder wall and then overpressurize the same cylinder again this time leading to bearing failure. The only things in common between the two failures are crankshaft, connecting rods and cylinder head. I wouldn't have any of those things back in my engine. Seems like both events could have been caused by overpressurization of that cylinder.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Arsonism

They didn't have a machine there to grind down that crank though. He just informed me that it was warped when he pulled it out after the second incident.

So the engine is already taken apart for the second time? (so after your 9 mile disaster on the highway?)

It's very difficult to see what happened without seeing the block and the parts obviously.
For all I know the new block you got from bmw has a fault.

What does the shop themselves think?
Especially about the loss of coolant.
I can imagine that they also arent happy with the situation.

About the warped crank, I dont know if you can measure that reliably with just a bearing cap off.
I'd imagine that you ideally want to have it lying in the block (so block upside down) on the bearings without the lower bearing caps on. and then use a micrometer to do a rotational measure of all the bearing faces.
I mean, if the crank is in the blok tightened down, tension of the other bearings can warp it. In that case: do you have a warped crank or a warped block. You'd never know imho.
Normally you check such things with a concentricity tester. I have one with rotating centers but much smaller (too small for a crankshaft), and that looks something like this (I use it for specific aircraft parts professionally):


But here the problem is that the I6 crank is very long and can maybe hang under it's own weight. And not being symetrical in design, it can hang more or less as the rotation goes.
So I dont know if it's so easy to measure if a crankshaft is warped.
I also don't know if you grind or polish such long camshafts one should use extra support. I dont know the preciese word in english, I think it's called a 'steady rest'. (a dutch machinist would call it a 'bril' but that probably means nothing to you)

[Arsonism]

Originally Posted by SaltyNC

I can't remember where, but I read something about a similar issue where the coolant sensor was completely out of the coolant in air, and it never registered that it was overheating.

Salty

I don't think that I received the light prior to having to shut the car down and try to turn it over again because all of that coolant leaked down as the cylinder began to seize. I could be wrong here, but considering I had no major leaks, it makes sense in my mind.

Originally Posted by bignosejim

Was your original failure (the cracked cylinder wall) and this one (#3 main/journal bearings) on the same cylinder? If they were, I would not use that cylinder head again. I'm no expert but that seems like too much of a coincidence to have a 'not too common' failure occur in a cylinder wall and then overpressurize the same cylinder again this time leading to bearing failure. The only things in common between the two failures are crankshaft, connecting rods and cylinder head. I wouldn't have any of those things back in my engine. Seems like both events could have been caused by overpressurization of that cylinder.

They were indeed the same cylinder. We plan to use a donor car for the new head and have that head re-worked. Some of that is so that we don't have to resurface a head that's already been resurfaced, shaving down even more of that material that's going to help us create a good seal. I agree it was no coincidence, and the shop has definitely taken that into consideration.

[Arsonism]

Alright Guido, we're going to break this one down.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

So the engine is already taken apart for the second time? (so after your 9 mile disaster on the highway?)

Yes, it had been taken apart before the end of the week, and I have some photos that I'll post below.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

It's very difficult to see what happened without seeing the block and the parts obviously.
For all I know the new block you got from bmw has a fault.

You know, I wouldn't doubt this considering how much trouble I had with the shipping of the block. It took three shipping attempts to get that right. The first one rolled off a pallet on the back of a shipping truck, the second arrived cracked and damaged as though it had rolled over on top of the pistons while in transit, and the last one finally arrived correctly.

The block will be sent to a local machine shop to be treated and cleaned before being reused. If there is a fault I hope that his equipment (literally brand new 300,000 dollar investment worth of equipment) should pick something like that up. Fingers crossed.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

What does the shop themselves think?
Especially about the loss of coolant.
I can imagine that they also arent happy with the situation.

The shop informed me of the following after tearing it down and really going through it. This may or may not be confirmed by the photos that I'll be attaching.

"The crank was just slightly warped/out of spec and due to this the piston wasn't being guided correctly through the cylinder. This caused the piston to beat itself up as it attempted to travel up to the point where that piston finally seized. This caused an over pressurization of the third cylinder as that piston was farthest off of travel and then created a gap in the head gasket that allowed the fluids to leak down."

That's the best I think I can come up with from my recollection of what they had told me when I went in.

The shop owner said "it's like remarrying your ex wife. You might want her around for an hour or two, but you really just want her gone again."

[QUOTE=GuidoK;19513065]
About the warped crank, I dont know if you can measure that reliably with just a bearing cap off.
I'd imagine that you ideally want to have it lying in the block (so block upside down) on the bearings without the lower bearing caps on. and then use a micrometer to do a rotational measure of all the bearing faces.
I mean, if the crank is in the block tightened down, tension of the other bearings can warp it. In that case: do you have a warped crank or a warped block. You'd never know imho.
[/quote

This is what scares me. When there's uncertainty like this. I don't know how they tested for it, and they were supposed to carry a test sheet over from the work that the first machine shop had done, but I don't know that they have access to it. I know that the machine shop cleaned them and measured them, but I don't know what steps they took to accomplish that. I could ask and see if I could get more information about how the old shop did it and how the new shop will perform these tests moving forward, but I'm not sure how or what to ask there.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Normally you check such things with a concentricity tester. I have one with rotating centers but much smaller (too small for a crankshaft), and that looks something like this (I use it for specific aircraft parts professionally):


But here the problem is that the I6 crank is very long and can maybe hang under it's own weight. And not being symmetrical in design, it can hang more or less as the rotation goes.
So I don't know if it's so easy to measure if a crankshaft is warped.
I also don't know if you grind or polish such long camshafts one should use extra support. I don't know the precise word in English, I think it's called a 'steady rest'. (a dutch machinist would call it a 'bril' but that probably means nothing to you)

You're right on the Dutch, I really don't have a lot of back ground there. Mediocre German is about as close as I come haha. They did have a printout sheet of instructions on how and under what conditions to check the crank shaft. I might be able to ask the head mechanic for those instructions. But you are right that it would be a challenge and the shop did allude to that. The machine shop seemed confident and informed him that all was well. From everything that had happened, we sincerely had hoped that it wasn't the case. Although I have netted a well maintained crank and rods out of this, it's not the way I would have liked to go about it and the shop probably doesn't enjoy this course of action either.



As promised, here are some photos, because you did say you wanted to look at these parts right?

Dis-assembly 1


Dis-assembly 2


Head 3rd Cylinder


3rd Rod Bearing Damage


3rd Piston





Shot of the Crank



Shot of the Crank (3rd Area)




Here's the head, after I showed y'all how clean it was before



Another of the head

[longress]

That looks like debris off the piston assembly. The skirts are damaged like something was in the cylinder and if course the top of the piston. Crank journals, oiling, were not the issue there's no major scouring.

[wdb]

I'm still back at the chicken and the egg. I'm still wondering if the water leak came first and the rest of it followed. Specifically, the cylinder ingesting a large amount of coolant while the engine was running.

I've seen engines siezed up solid due to water leaking into the combustion chamber. Granted it happened while they were not running. But the fact is that water does not compress anywhere near as much as air.

That much metal hammering away inside the block should have been making a hell of an ugly sound. The only symptom you reported was a misfire.

[longress]

Any signs on the head gasket of leaks in the combustion chamber?