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      04-11-2019, 09:14 PM   #67
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I do not consider myself a bigot, fascist or racist however I am beginning to really dislike liberals. The young liberals in this country seem hellbent on destroying the greatest nation on earth. They are offended and decry fowl and even resort to violence if you pose a viewpoint to which they disagree. They believe they are simply owed what historically generations before have worked for and died to acquire. They believe healthcare is a right rather than a privilege. Healthcare should be free, college should be free, $15 minimum wage, etc, etc. I am sorry, you are not owed anything. Medicare for all in a country of 330 million people is not feasible. Do the math. Socialism does not work, has never work and will never work.
Comments like this only highlights the ignorance of folks on this forum. The US has always been a mix of socialistic and capitalistic policies. Pure capitalism would be just as destructive as pure socialism. No one’s advocating pure socialism. Just like no one’s (seriously) advocating pure capitalism. But to argue against pure socialism is to argue against a fictional position (also known as a strawman).
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      04-11-2019, 09:35 PM   #68
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^ And just to respond to the remark that healthcare should not be a right: Do you agree that healthcare should be a right at least for some? Let’s say you have two perfectly healthy, upper-middle-class, highly productive individuals (exercises regularly, never smoked, never drank, happy in their jobs, so completely stress-free), but because of a quirk of genetics, have a child with a one-in-hundred-million genetic disorder undetectable prior to birth, that will require them to spend millions of dollars to keep that child alive for the rest of the child’s life. Money that the couple doesn’t have. Would you agree that this family should be allowed some assistance to raise this child? Or should we just force them to kill their child? Or allow them to be rendered into poverty? All because of bad luck?

Now if you agree to assistance for this family, the follow-up question is where do you draw the line?
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      04-12-2019, 06:41 AM   #69
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Jesus H. Christ...

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New York Democrats block tuition aid for Gold Star kids; approve millions for DREAMERS

NY Dems block bill expanding college tuition for Gold Star families after approving $27M in tuition aid for illegal immigrants: report

“Assemblywoman Glick should be ashamed of herself,” said State Sen. Robert Ortt, R-Niagara. “We set aside $27 million dollars for college for people that are here illegally… Apparently, $2.7 million is all that the families of soldiers who are killed, get. If you’re a child of a fallen soldier, you do not rank as high and you know that by the money.”
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/new...igrants-report

Keep it up NY, keep it up...
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      04-12-2019, 07:42 AM   #70
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Dems are clearly focused on health care at this point in the cycle. Both of our major Dem candidates for gov here are running “save your healthcare” ads (election this fall). Some media is talking health care as the key issue that won the midterms and will carry 2020.

Trump put off Rep health care plan until after 2020 election; what is the strategy?

Will health care remain the central issue, carrying one of the Dems to the presidency, or does the shit show drag the Dems down?
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      04-12-2019, 07:55 AM   #71
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Yeh, you can keep your socialism BS. I am quite satisfied with my ability to mobilize upward in socioeconomic status.
We can assume that come 65 you'll be declining to collect your social security checks and declining Medicaire, yes?
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      04-12-2019, 07:59 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by DocB View Post
I do not consider myself a bigot, fascist or racist however I am beginning to really dislike liberals. The young liberals in this country seem hellbent on destroying the greatest nation on earth. They are offended and decry fowl and even resort to violence if you pose a viewpoint to which they disagree. They believe they are simply owed what historically generations before have worked for and died to acquire. They believe healthcare is a right rather than a privilege. Healthcare should be free, college should be free, $15 minimum wage, etc, etc. I am sorry, you are not owed anything. Medicare for all in a country of 330 million people is not feasible. Do the math. Socialism does not work, has never work and will never work.
Comments like this only highlights the ignorance of folks on this forum. The US has always been a mix of socialistic and capitalistic policies. Pure capitalism would be just as destructive as pure socialism. No one’s advocating pure socialism. Just like no one’s (seriously) advocating pure capitalism. But to argue against pure socialism is to argue against a fictional position (also known as a strawman).
Please point to one thing that is incorrect about what I said. Ignorance my ass.
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      04-12-2019, 08:12 AM   #73
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^ And just to respond to the remark that healthcare should not be a right: Do you agree that healthcare should be a right at least for some? Let’s say you have two perfectly healthy, upper-middle-class, highly productive individuals (exercises regularly, never smoked, never drank, happy in their jobs, so completely stress-free), but because of a quirk of genetics, have a child with a one-in-hundred-million genetic disorder undetectable prior to birth, that will require them to spend millions of dollars to keep that child alive for the rest of the child’s life. Money that the couple doesn’t have. Would you agree that this family should be allowed some assistance to raise this child? Or should we just force them to kill their child? Or allow them to be rendered into poverty? All because of bad luck?

Now if you agree to assistance for this family, the follow-up question is where do you draw the line?
Yes, where do you draw the line. Does the person that eats fast food 3 times a week, smokes, does not exercise and has a lung cancer, followed by heart disease deserve access to the best medical care free of charge. Where does personal responsibility come into play. By the way, the above scenario describes a vast amount of Americans although the specifics may differ slightly and is much more likely than the one you described. America offers plenty of safety nets for those hit with bad luck. In a country of 330 million you cannot offer quality healthcare for all. You would have a system of rationed care, with the government picking and choosing who gets what based on a tiered system taking into account age and societal worth.
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      04-12-2019, 08:46 AM   #74
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Yeh, you can keep your socialism BS. I am quite satisfied with my ability to mobilize upward in socioeconomic status.
We can assume that come 65 you'll be declining to collect your social security checks and declining Medicaire, yes?
Ah, a liberal from Seattle. No, I am due those entitlements just like I am due all the fruits of my labor. I detest people that believe my wealth should be taken from me and redistributed to those who feel they simply deserve what they want. I pay enough into the entitlement system to support those that are less fortunate as well as those who simply choose not to better themselves.
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      04-12-2019, 08:48 AM   #75
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Yeh, you can keep your socialism BS. I am quite satisfied with my ability to mobilize upward in socioeconomic status.
We can assume that come 65 you'll be declining to collect your social security checks and declining Medicaire, yes?
Ah, a liberal from Seattle. No, I am due those entitlements just like I am due all the fruits of my labor. I detest people that believe my wealth should be taken from me and redistributed to those who feel they simply deserve what they want. I pay enough into the entitlement system to support those that are less fortunate as well as those who simply choose not to better themselves.
You are "due those entitlements"? Who sounds like a liberal now?

Thanks for establishing that Socialism is bad with the exception of socialism that you personally benefit from. Your position is clear.
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      04-12-2019, 08:50 AM   #76
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Ah, a liberal from Seattle. No, I am due those entitlements just like I am due all the fruits of my labor. I detest people that believe my wealth should be taken from me and redistributed to those who feel they simply deserve what they want. I pay enough into the entitlement system to support those that are less fortunate as well as those who simply choose not to better themselves.
Exactly.

Why should we keep drifting further and further down the socialist rabbit hole at our expense?

The poor in America have it easy when compared to other regions, enough is enough.
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      04-12-2019, 09:17 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by DocB View Post
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
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Originally Posted by DocB View Post
Yeh, you can keep your socialism BS. I am quite satisfied with my ability to mobilize upward in socioeconomic status.
We can assume that come 65 you'll be declining to collect your social security checks and declining Medicaire, yes?
Ah, a liberal from Seattle. No, I am due those entitlements just like I am due all the fruits of my labor. I detest people that believe my wealth should be taken from me and redistributed to those who feel they simply deserve what they want. I pay enough into the entitlement system to support those that are less fortunate as well as those who simply choose not to better themselves.
You are "due those entitlements"? Who sounds like a liberal now?

Thanks for establishing that Socialism is bad with the exception of socialism that you personally benefit from. Your position is clear.
There is a difference between a capitalistic society that supports an entitlement program and socialism that provides the bare minimum to the working class while the government lives in luxury. Think Venezuela. Or is Democratic Socialism different? Gullible liberal that you are.

Ever been to France? Tell me what the average quality car you see on the road. A rusted out Fiat as taxes are 70% and that is all the working class can afford.

I will die to support this Republic and my freedom then to let liberal bleeding hearts like you take over.
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      04-12-2019, 09:30 AM   #78
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
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Originally Posted by DocB View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocB View Post
Yeh, you can keep your socialism BS. I am quite satisfied with my ability to mobilize upward in socioeconomic status.
We can assume that come 65 you'll be declining to collect your social security checks and declining Medicaire, yes?
Ah, a liberal from Seattle. No, I am due those entitlements just like I am due all the fruits of my labor. I detest people that believe my wealth should be taken from me and redistributed to those who feel they simply deserve what they want. I pay enough into the entitlement system to support those that are less fortunate as well as those who simply choose not to better themselves.
You are "due those entitlements"? Who sounds like a liberal now?

Thanks for establishing that Socialism is bad with the exception of socialism that you personally benefit from. Your position is clear.
There is a difference between a capitalistic society that supports an entitlement program and socialism that provides the bare minimum to the working class while the government lives in luxury. Think Venezuela. Or is Democratic Socialism different? Gullible liberal that you are.

Ever been to France? Tell me what the average quality car you see on the road. A rusted out Fiat as taxes are 70% and that is all the working class can afford.

I will die to support this Republic and my freedom then to let liberal bleeding hearts like you take over.
Wow. Judge people much?
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      04-12-2019, 11:12 AM   #79
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Or is Democratic Socialism different?
Yes. They smile when they take all your money and property.
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      04-12-2019, 02:00 PM   #80
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DocB View Post
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
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Originally Posted by DocB View Post
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocB View Post
Yeh, you can keep your socialism BS. I am quite satisfied with my ability to mobilize upward in socioeconomic status.
We can assume that come 65 you'll be declining to collect your social security checks and declining Medicaire, yes?
Ah, a liberal from Seattle. No, I am due those entitlements just like I am due all the fruits of my labor. I detest people that believe my wealth should be taken from me and redistributed to those who feel they simply deserve what they want. I pay enough into the entitlement system to support those that are less fortunate as well as those who simply choose not to better themselves.
You are "due those entitlements"? Who sounds like a liberal now?

Thanks for establishing that Socialism is bad with the exception of socialism that you personally benefit from. Your position is clear.
There is a difference between a capitalistic society that supports an entitlement program and socialism that provides the bare minimum to the working class while the government lives in luxury. Think Venezuela. Or is Democratic Socialism different? Gullible liberal that you are.

Ever been to France? Tell me what the average quality car you see on the road. A rusted out Fiat as taxes are 70% and that is all the working class can afford.

I will die to support this Republic and my freedom then to let liberal bleeding hearts like you take over.
Wow. Judge people much?
Yes, I know your kind enough to form an opinion.
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      04-12-2019, 02:47 PM   #81
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The camel’s nose comes to mind...
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      04-12-2019, 03:20 PM   #82
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The camel's nose comes to mind...
Yes, we need to stop this socialistic transformation immediately before it is too late.
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      04-12-2019, 03:30 PM   #83
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MKSixer I believe we just had not one, but TWO requests. Be a sport and help them out.
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      04-12-2019, 03:31 PM   #84
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
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Originally Posted by DocB View Post
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
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Originally Posted by DocB View Post
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Originally Posted by DocB View Post
Yeh, you can keep your socialism BS. I am quite satisfied with my ability to mobilize upward in socioeconomic status.
We can assume that come 65 you'll be declining to collect your social security checks and declining Medicaire, yes?
Ah, a liberal from Seattle. No, I am due those entitlements just like I am due all the fruits of my labor. I detest people that believe my wealth should be taken from me and redistributed to those who feel they simply deserve what they want. I pay enough into the entitlement system to support those that are less fortunate as well as those who simply choose not to better themselves.
You are "due those entitlements"? Who sounds like a liberal now?

Thanks for establishing that Socialism is bad with the exception of socialism that you personally benefit from. Your position is clear.
There is a difference between a capitalistic society that supports an entitlement program and socialism that provides the bare minimum to the working class while the government lives in luxury. Think Venezuela. Or is Democratic Socialism different? Gullible liberal that you are.

Ever been to France? Tell me what the average quality car you see on the road. A rusted out Fiat as taxes are 70% and that is all the working class can afford.

I will die to support this Republic and my freedom then to let liberal bleeding hearts like you take over.
Wow. Judge people much?
Yes, I know your kind enough to form an opinion.
Of that I have no doubt. Keep on doin' you Doc. Have a nice weekend.
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      04-12-2019, 03:32 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
^ And just to respond to the remark that healthcare should not be a right: Do you agree that healthcare should be a right at least for some? Let’s say you have two perfectly healthy, upper-middle-class, highly productive individuals (exercises regularly, never smoked, never drank, happy in their jobs, so completely stress-free), but because of a quirk of genetics, have a child with a one-in-hundred-million genetic disorder undetectable prior to birth, that will require them to spend millions of dollars to keep that child alive for the rest of the child’s life. Money that the couple doesn’t have. Would you agree that this family should be allowed some assistance to raise this child? Or should we just force them to kill their child? Or allow them to be rendered into poverty? All because of bad luck?

Now if you agree to assistance for this family, the follow-up question is where do you draw the line?

The problem with the 'right to healthcare' is that it isn't some tangible object that can be bought or sold. It is labor.

When you say that someone has the right to someone else's labor, you are essentially advocating for slavery.

No one has the right to force anyone to perform labor against their will in the United States.


It's not that hard. Pretty black and white, really.
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      04-12-2019, 04:02 PM   #86
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The problem with the 'right to healthcare' is that it isn't some tangible object that can be bought or sold. It is labor.

When you say that someone has the right to someone else's labor, you are essentially advocating for slavery.

No one has the right to force anyone to perform labor against their will in the United States.


It's not that hard. Pretty black and white, really.
Man, that's a stretch. Slavery? Come on. Maybe I'm not understanding your analogy?

Sr. citizens in this country currently have the right to healthcare, afforded to them through Medicare. The doctors aren't working for free and they aren't forced to see you as a patient. If my wife sees a Medicare patient, she gets paid for it. She also gets to decide when to accept new medicare patients and when to say "no." How is that akin to slavery?

If you in a horrible accident and brought to the ER, unconscious and on the edge of death, they will treat you. They will not refuse you. That's a basic human right that's afforded to us in this country. Are you saying we shouldn't have that right out of fear that the patient may not be able to pay and thus the ER staff was forced to work for free? Do we need to verify ability to pay before admitting to the ER?
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      04-12-2019, 04:16 PM   #87
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Man, that's a stretch. Slavery? Come on. Maybe I'm not understanding your analogy?

Sr. citizens in this country currently have the right to healthcare, afforded to them through Medicare. The doctors aren't working for free and they aren't forced to see you as a patient. If my wife sees a Medicare patient, she gets paid for it. She also gets to decide when to accept new medicare patients and when to say "no." How is that akin to slavery?

If you in a horrible accident and brought to the ER, unconscious and on the edge of death, they will treat you. They will not refuse you. That's a basic human right that's afforded to us in this country. Are you saying we shouldn't have that right out of fear that the patient may not be able to pay and thus the ER staff was forced to work for free? Do we need to verify ability to pay before admitting to the ER?
Sr citizens have access to healthcare, not a right to it. There is an important difference. Those who speak of a right to healthcare often mean access at no direct cost, not literally a right guaranteed under our constitution, IMO. RunSilent has this correct; if you have a right to my labor (as a doctor in this case), I can be compelled to provide that labor at any or no price/wage. And I can’t say “no” as your wife can now.
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      04-12-2019, 05:02 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
Man, that's a stretch. Slavery? Come on. Maybe I'm not understanding your analogy?

Sr. citizens in this country currently have the right to healthcare, afforded to them through Medicare. The doctors aren't working for free and they aren't forced to see you as a patient. If my wife sees a Medicare patient, she gets paid for it. She also gets to decide when to accept new medicare patients and when to say "no." How is that akin to slavery?

If you in a horrible accident and brought to the ER, unconscious and on the edge of death, they will treat you. They will not refuse you. That's a basic human right that's afforded to us in this country. Are you saying we shouldn't have that right out of fear that the patient may not be able to pay and thus the ER staff was forced to work for free? Do we need to verify ability to pay before admitting to the ER?
Sr citizens have access to healthcare, not a right to it. There is an important difference. Those who speak of a right to healthcare often mean access at no direct cost, not literally a right guaranteed under our constitution, IMO. RunSilent has this correct; if you have a right to my labor (as a doctor in this case), I can be compelled to provide that labor at any or no price/wage. And I can't say "no" as your wife can now.
Thanks for the reply. I see where you're coming from but I do have to disagree. Maybe I have this wrong but as far as I know, if you are an American citizen and you are over 65 you can't be denied Medicare. That seems about as close to a "right" as you can come. Certainly that's on par with the earlier posters comments about having a right to take his social security payments despite being vehemently opposed to socialist programs.

The fact that my wife is not obligated or required to see Medicare patients and the fact that she collects payment when she does tells me that she's not indentured, not enslaved, by the program.

As for Medicare for all Americans = free healthcare for all, i disagree. Any such plan would require some level of patient responsibility, just as is the case in other developed countries with government run health programs.

Again, your rational and civil response is greatly appreciated.
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