VF570 vs. ESS VT2-525

[WeekendWarriorz]

Hey guys, I'm looking to find myself in another M roadster in the future and this time around I have plans of supercharging. After reading it seems like:

1. Both kits are a tight fit in the engine bay
2. VF had issues with their tuning years ago which should be figured out
3. Air to water intercooler vs air to air intercooler. Again not to turn this into a debate both of them have their advantages.
4. The ESS kit is upgradable from 525 to 550, 575 or even 700.
5. Both kits make similar power out of the box with the upper edge to the vf570.

Now the biggest thing is the support/customer service. I've heard very good things about ESS tuning when it comes to support, troubleshooting, tune updates etc. Do to the supercharger guys here, which kit did you choose and why?

[tikamak]

Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz

Hey guys, I'm looking to find myself in another M roadster in the future and this time around I have plans of supercharging. After reading it seems like:

1. Both kits are a tight fit in the engine bay
2. VF had issues with their tuning years ago which should be figured out
3. Air to water intercooler vs air to air intercooler. Again not to turn this into a debate both of them have their advantages.
4. The ESS kit is upgradable from 525 to 550, 575 or even 700.
5. Both kits make similar power out of the box with the upper edge to the vf570.

Now the biggest thing is the support/customer service. I've heard very good things about ESS tuning when it comes to support, troubleshooting, tune updates etc. When it comes to VF, well.. you guys know what's been on the forums. I previously had a VF engineering tune on my old Z4M since they are local to me in Anaheim, the support was there just not what I wanted it to be. Obviously this is a big part since I'm nearly dropping 10k on a blower from them. So to the supercharger guys here, which kit did you choose and why?

1. true, ESS very tight, sometimes touching the chassis
2.
3.
4. max is 525

[Memento1731]

Ik have the G Power SK1 kit and I love it. Maybe it's a bit down on peak power but for that it makes up with a nice lower/midrange torque.

[pokeybritches]

The G-Power aesthetics and appearance of quality are in a different league. It makes as much or more power up through 6k rpm. I'm not sure why more people don't consider their kits. I guess it's because they are conservative when it comes to advertising numbers, and horsepower sells (even though customers actually want torque and just don't know it). FWIW, My G-Power Z4M made 50 ft-lbs more at the wheels than my VT2-500 Z4M through a good portion of the powerband. Now that I've added stepped headers to both and a custom tune has been dialed in on the ESS car only, they are closer, but G-Power still wins on torque. I'd take 50 ft-lbs of torque in the midrange over 50 hp at redline all day any day.

The VT2-525 is max available on the Z4M without going custom, and it takes some know how to move beyond the basic kit. Belt slip becomes an issue and custom tuning is required. ESS quality is good, and I've only had minor issues with boost hoses coming loose. I've had leaks develop in the coolant lines for the G-Power manifold, which led to the manifold running low on coolant. So, ESS has an advantage in that the failure mode is less airflow and a richer mixture vs the air-to-water failure mode of ineffective cooling.

I would strongly suggest you consider the G-Power kit unless you're set on modifying it further. I was running Pilot Super Sports and couldn't put the power down in 2nd gear below 60 deg F. More power wouldn't do anything without addressing the traction issues.

[WeekendWarriorz]

Originally Posted by pokeybritches

The G-Power aesthetics and appearance of quality are in a different league. It makes as much or more power up through 6k rpm. I'm not sure why more people don't consider their kits. I guess it's because they are conservative when it comes to advertising numbers, and horsepower sells (even though customers actually want torque and just don't know it). FWIW, My G-Power Z4M made 50 ft-lbs more at the wheels than my VT2-500 Z4M through a good portion of the powerband. Now that I've added stepped headers to both and a custom tune has been dialed in on the ESS car only, they are closer, but G-Power still wins on torque. I'd take 50 ft-lbs of torque in the midrange over 50 hp at redline all day any day.

The VT2-525 is max available on the Z4M without going custom, and it takes some know how to move beyond the basic kit. Belt slip becomes an issue and custom tuning is required. ESS quality is good, and I've only had minor issues with boost hoses coming loose. I've had leaks develop in the coolant lines for the G-Power manifold, which led to the manifold running low on coolant. So, ESS has an advantage in that the failure mode is less airflow and a richer mixture vs the air-to-water failure mode of ineffective cooling.

I would strongly suggest you consider the G-Power kit unless you're set on modifying it further. I was running Pilot Super Sports and couldn't put the power down in 2nd gear below 60 deg F. More power wouldn't do anything without addressing the traction issues.

I mean I didn't even consider G power as an option due to them being a Europe based company and the blower is small and doesn't have room to expand on the setup. Also I'm not a big torque fan and want that top end power coming from a FBO e85 135i. I'm aware that the kit name is 525 for ESS and VF570 for VF. But what no one has mentioned is that they offer upgraded pullies/software for those trying to expand their kits, you just need to contact them. I have a buddy here on a ESS 525 kit in a e46 then bought a 79mm pulley for $250 from Ess which is either the 550 or 575 upgrade from them. Same software and put down 554whp. It would make the most sense for me to go with VF since they're down the street from me but reading their reviews of Non existing support has made me look deeper into ESS and people say their customer service is great

[pokeybritches]

I would look at pulley sizes on the kits. IIRC they both use Vortech V3 Si units, so the same pulley size should achieve similar results.

The VF bracket is superior. I know of several ESS owners that have had oil filter housings crack, including the previous owner of my car. The VF kit has more belt wrap for less slip. I believe ESS redesigned their bracket a couple years ago, but I haven't really followed.

I haven't heard of either VF or ESS offering alternative software for the Z4M... only the E46 M3.

554 whp sounds like a lot of dyno correction factor or a very generous dyno, since it would mean the engine is operating at close to 200% VE (almost 15 psi of boost with zero supercharger drive losses or ignition retard due to heat). I wouldn't trust a canned tune at those boost levels on an S54, no matter who it's from.

[WeekendWarriorz]

Originally Posted by pokeybritches

I would look at pulley sizes on the kits. IIRC they both use Vortech V3 Si units, so the same pulley size should achieve similar results.

The VF bracket is superior. I know of several ESS owners that have had oil filter housings crack, including the previous owner of my car. The VF kit has more belt wrap for less slip. I believe ESS redesigned their bracket a couple years ago, but I haven't really followed.

I haven't heard of either VF or ESS offering alternative software for the Z4M... only the E46 M3.

554 whp sounds like a lot of dyno correction factor or a very generous dyno, since it would mean the engine is operating at close to 200% VE (almost 15 psi of boost with zero supercharger drive losses or ignition retard due to heat). I wouldn't trust a canned tune at those boost levels on an S54, no matter who it's from.

I mean they developed the canned software for the pullies that come with the kit, so it should be possible for them to make software. Either way TTFS can take care of it.

As for the dyno it was at European AutoSource which uses a DynoJet, and their shop is highly used for performance figures. Fuel is undisclosed but the software wasn't changed from the software given. How is the support from G power?

[Beedub]

ESS now has a "race Brace" for the blower... Its adds significant stiffness to the blower bracket... i would imagine all have some degree of flex in them.

Very tight fit in engine bay, i did have a very minor rub from intercooler coupler. i removed and refitted & PPF'd the area in question (index finger nail sized) and no issue moving forward but all that A/A pipework is a squeeze.

Very very few issues with mine... Amazing mod that looks very oem in the engine bay. I have been tinkering for years to perfect the install.

[WeekendWarriorz]

Originally Posted by Beedub

ESS now has a "race Brace" for the blower... Its adds significant stiffness to the blower bracket... i would imagine all have some degree of flex in them.

Very tight fit in engine bay, i did have a very minor rub from intercooler coupler. i removed and refitted & PPF'd the area in question (index finger nail sized) and no issue moving forward but all that A/A pipework is a squeeze.

Very very few issues with mine... Amazing mod that looks very oem in the engine bay. I have been tinkering for years to perfect the install.

For the air to air intercooler did you have to trim or cut any of the plastics?

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz

For the air to air intercooler did you have to trim or cut any of the plastics?

No... everything is intact and no holes or drilling for the the kit at all. uses all existing mount points which sold me on the kit.

[GuidoK]

For discussion's sake regarding the reliability issues; how many miles has each one of you put on your supercharger kits to get a clearer picture?
I mean if someone hasn't had any issues but say has only clocked 5k miles on their kit is a different thing than someone who had 5 issues but has done 50k miles on their kit.

As for another issue:
Personally I wouldn't buy a kit where you don't have confidence in the support the manufacturer gives. Because chances are high you will need it. A certain part might have a difficult fit, or you even get the wrong part (without knowing its the wrong part, that isnt always clear). At that point you want to call them, and you want to speak to someone on the phone that has good knowledge of the product and wants to invest time to help you.
I consider myself a competent mechanic, but I also needed them (ess) because as it turned out later I got a kit for an e46 (I have an e85) and certain holes needed to be plugged on the e85 kit (and weren't), which aren't directly apparent.
There's always something that you don't expect when installing these kits. Then it's always great that you can fall back on someone by phone that has lots and lots of experience and not some call center secretary.
I'm not saying that VF's support is bad (because I have no experience with them), but if you say you live in the same town as them and even then didn't get the support you expected on previous purchased products....
Manufacturer support is everything, because if there's something not right (or you have a problem), in practice they are the only ones you can fall back on.
The problem will be far to specific to ask on a forum, because you won't be able to identify in enough detail what's wrong with it (otherwise you would be able to solve it yourself ) in order for someone that has installed this kit once or twice to help you.

As for the installation: if you're going to do it yourself, read the installation manuals from the different suppliers in advance and meticulously to see what you're getting, and if you get a shop to install it make sure they have lots of experience with it (shops want to minimize time spent on it, so if they encounter a problem, they will try and solve it in the shortest time possible, and not necessarily in the best way). If you choose VF, try them to have everything installed. (because if something's not right, they can't blame the manufacturer; that is something a shop can/will try to do).

Reading the different manuals is always interesting as you'll see that they use different solutions for the same problem.
For instance I think that the different manufacturers also choose for different supercharger lubrication methods.

[WeekendWarriorz]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

For discussion's sake regarding the reliability issues; how many miles has each one of you put on your supercharger kits to get a clearer picture?
I mean if someone hasn't had any issues but say has only clocked 5k miles on their kit is a different thing than someone who had 5 issues but has done 50k miles on their kit.

As for another issue:
Personally I wouldn't buy a kit where you don't have confidence in the support the manufacturer gives. Because chances are high you will need it. A certain part might have a difficult fit, or you even get the wrong part (without knowing its the wrong part, that isnt always clear). At that point you want to call them, and you want to speak to someone on the phone that has good knowledge of the product and wants to invest time to help you.
I consider myself a competent mechanic, but I also needed them (ess) because as it turned out later I got a kit for an e46 (I have an e85) and certain holes needed to be plugged on the e85 kit (and weren't), which aren't directly apparent.
There's always something that you don't expect when installing these kits. Then it's always great that you can fall back on someone by phone that has lots and lots of experience and not some call center secretary.
I'm not saying that VF's support is bad (because I have no experience with them), but if you say you live in the same town as them and even then didn't get the support you expected on previous purchased products....
Manufacturer support is everything, because if there's something not right (or you have a problem), in practice they are the only ones you can fall back on.
The problem will be far to specific to ask on a forum, because you won't be able to identify in enough detail what's wrong with it (otherwise you would be able to solve it yourself ) in order for someone that has installed this kit once or twice to help you.

As for the installation: if you're going to do it yourself, read the installation manuals from the different suppliers in advance meticulously to see what you're getting, and if you get a shop to install it make sure they have lots of experience with it (shops want to minimize time spent on it, so if they encounter a problem, they will try and solve it in the shortest time possible, and not necessarily in the best way). If you choose VF, try them to have everything installed. (because if something's not right, they can't blame the manufacturer; that is something a shop can/will try to do)

I'm a competent mechanic as well, have replaced turbos on N54/N55, done a motor swap before on a B5 S4, do all my maintenace except things that require special attention. There's plenty of local shops next to VF including EAS who has had a Z4MC shop car which has had both VF and ESS blowers on it. I've yet to read or hear one bad thing about ESS aside from the tight fit. And the VF kit is supposed to have even better figment. I do have previous experience with VF, amazing amazing products but when it comes to support that's where I become skeptical. Their shop is filled with Lambos and r8's and honestly I believe that they see us older models as not worth their time as apposed to the new supercars where they can be making much greater profits on, cause in the end of the day it's a business. Getting them to install it is a possibility, but supercharging these cars for the average person isn't cheap when you count labor, supporting mods, etc and I wouldn't want to sleep at night questioning if I should've spent my $10k+ buying the other kit.

[GuidoK]

Sure, diy install saves a lot of money; for me it was the main reason to choose for ESS instead of Gpower (Gpower also sells the SK1 kit for m54 engines, but not with a diy install, probably because of the tuning, thus the gpower sk1 would cost me almost twice the cost of my ess TS2 kit; for the install I had to go to germany (almost 10 years ago though)).
You foremost need the support when you get wrong parts (or defective parts) and you don't realize it. And these things happen (especially at ESS but their support has always been awesome).

The only technical reason for me to be reluctant about Gpower is the way the lubrication is done on the supercharger. Here in europe the smaller Gpowerkits (sk sporty drive) for m54 engines are very common. And I know that multiple of these kits had their superchargers rebuild probably due to lubrication issues.
These kits however use a different (smaller) compressor (T3), and of course a different engine (m54), however their lubrication system is similar, with the oil feed tap coming off the oil filter housing and return to the sump. Apparently this is a finicky system to get right. I know one shop that has installed quite a lot of these system and often complains about the lubrication system of these kits. Rebuilding them at gpower germany is not that expensive though (for the T3 its about $1000 I think, the T1 I dont know)
Also the idler pulleys in the gpower kits (also sk1) are very prone to wear. These are generic pulleys but expensive to buy at Gpower ($80/pc or something like that; in the aftermarket you can get similar ones for under $10 with some smart googling and searching on dimensions)

[Beedub]

FWIW my kit has been installed over 3 different stages , 7 years and 60% track usage....
i Even blew a seal on the blower. ESS replaced ZERO quibble. They have offered me nothing but fantastic customer service tbh, even when IVE been somewhat difficult in the past.

[pokeybritches]

Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz

I mean they developed the canned software for the pullies that come with the kit, so it should be possible for them to make software. Either way TTFS can take care of it.

As for the dyno it was at European AutoSource which uses a DynoJet, and their shop is highly used for performance figures. Fuel is undisclosed but the software wasn't changed from the software given. How is the support from G power?

The EAS dyno is known to read high, which is why so many people use it. I'm sure the M3 is making great power though.

I've put about 20k miles on both my ESS and G-Power Z4M's. While I consistently praise the G-Power kit, there's nothing wrong with ESS and it's a solid option. I would say the hardware on the ESS kit is industrial, strong, and purposeful without being ugly. G-Power hardware is machined to be both cleverly purposeful and aesthetically pleasing. The ESS is like the 911 Turbo of supercharger kits, while the G-Power is the Ferrari.

It's not going to be simple or cheap to make 500 whp. A TTFS tune will run you $2k or so (I forget what I paid). If you need to upgrade the intercooler, that can get expensive quick (my 996 Turbo's intercoolers cost $3000... the cores alone are over $1000 plus custom welded end tanks and brackets, and there's no way to do it cheap without ending up with an inferior product regardless of the application). I don't know how efficient the intercoolers on either kit will be at 10-12 psi.

I would consider that there is a difference between a single 3rd gear ramp run for dyno numbers when the engine is cold, and reliability at sustained high rpm. I personally don't like to rely solely on the knock sensors to save the engine from disaster, so it's important to have ignition timing set to support the IAT at high demand; sacrifice a bit of power while the engine is cool in favor of reliability when it's hot. Having a better intercooler will reduce IAT's under high demand and allow the tuner to advance ignition timing on the base map. My point is you can have an intercooler setup that's inadequate while the car still puts out good numbers on a single dyno pull, but it has ignition timing dangerously advanced (with the knock sensor feedback being the only thing keeping the engine from being destroyed). With a high compression engine, high rpm, and high boost, the margin of error is razor thin. So... you'll want to consider intercooler / heat exchanger capacity, and have a plan to upgrade your kit if the capacity isn't there. Unfortunately this data isn't available on Zpost.

Another consideration is the pulleys. The VF kit is approaching the lower limit in terms of supercharger pulley sizing without belt slip, and the extra idler pulleys to increase belt wrap are bandaid fixes. I'd consider increasing the size of the crank pulley and adjusting all accessory pulleys to maintain the same relative speed.

When you consider the intercooler and pulley upgrades that may be required, upgrading the G-Power's ASA unit may be comparable in terms of cost. Obviously its heat exchanger capacities should be analyzed to confirm they are suitable, but I can't see belt slip ever being an issue. I would take the power delivery of the ASA unit over Vortech any day.