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      02-11-2019, 11:55 AM   #67
Michael9218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
Where do you get this value for a minimum temp?
My context is on track. For driving on the street, having moisture build up in your oil isn't as much an issue. Under high load, as in at the track, moisture in your oil can be a bearing killer. At the very least, you want your oil to be hot enough to boil out moisture. Call Redline tech support and they'll explain this to you. They have no problem with their oil being run at 300 F, but caution not to run hard under 212 F.

Too often you see people brag about the big oil cooler they installed and how proud they are that their oil now stays cool on track. This is bad. On cold days, I tape off airflow to my oil cooler.
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      02-16-2019, 04:10 AM   #68
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I hear you, but id like mine to run a /little/cooler than it is atm. 236 C at my last outing, (hard run day at the track PB run this day too, so pretty darn happy with that) while my water temp stays within spec.
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      02-16-2019, 09:29 AM   #69
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Hopefully you meant to type 136c.

Even with that, 136 isn't terrible (275f). Maybe shoot for 130c.
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      02-16-2019, 01:15 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael9218 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
Where do you get this value for a minimum temp?
My context is on track. For driving on the street, having moisture build up in your oil isn't as much an issue. Under high load, as in at the track, moisture in your oil can be a bearing killer. At the very least, you want your oil to be hot enough to boil out moisture. Call Redline tech support and they'll explain this to you. They have no problem with their oil being run at 300 F, but caution not to run hard under 212 F.

Too often you see people brag about the big oil cooler they installed and how proud they are that their oil now stays cool on track. This is bad. On cold days, I tape off airflow to my oil cooler.
My context in this thread was for track use in a supercharged S54 based on real world data logged experience lol. The stock cooling sure is not up to the task in a southern climate with a stock motor during hard track use much less making 500 hp . The viscosity for this application as temps approach 300 F is certainly not adequate no matter what oil you use . Also the BMW temp gauge is not the actual oil temp it's an calculated value , direct measurement showed a much higher temp on track, unfortunately this has been true on every bmw I've owned even a newer F series M6 . As an aside I've owned plenty of cars that are more track oriented stock and do not run 212 on the street and oil analysis has never shown water .... my V10 in the R8 runs 190's -200 after a 4 hour interstate drive in the summer . Your concerns of water and deposits are overblown in my opinion unless we are talking 180's peak oil temp . I ended up rebuilding the S54 to use a widened crank journal and wider bearings ala Lang racing to solve the problem of the narrow bearing and track oiling . Then used Motul 300 V 15/50 with great success problem solved for 20k track miles .
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      02-17-2019, 07:51 AM   #71
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This article provides a good explanation for you on why you should run oil over 212f and also supports the premise that running synthetic oil over 300f is acceptable.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/engine-oil-temperature/

Highlights:
For a dual-purpose car, engine oil needs to be at least 220 degrees F to burn off all the deposits and accumulated water vapor. For every pound of fuel burned in an engine, the combustion process also generates a pound of water! If engine sump temperatures rarely exceed 212 degrees (water’s boiling point), the water will mix with sulfur (another combustion by-product) and create acids that can eventually damage bearings.

As for ultimate power potential, the general consensus among most racers is that hot oil and cool water make more power in most engines. Cold engine oil causes excessive frictional drag on the bearings and cylinder walls. A quality conventional motor oil will tolerate oil sump temperatures of up to 250 degrees, but starts breaking down over 275 degrees. The traditional approach is to try to hold oil temperatures between 230 and 260 degrees. Even on a short-duration, drag-only combo where oil is frequently changed, I would not want to routinely see under-200-degree oil temps.

A full-synthetic oil will withstand sump temperatures in excess of 300 degrees, and for hard-core professional racing, some oval-track race teams are experimenting with ultra-thin, specially formulated, race-only synthetics operating at 350 degrees or even higher.
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      04-12-2019, 01:17 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael9218 View Post
This article provides a good explanation for you on why you should run oil over 212f and also supports the premise that running synthetic oil over 300f is acceptable.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/engine-oil-temperature/

Highlights:
For a dual-purpose car, engine oil needs to be at least 220 degrees F to burn off all the deposits and accumulated water vapor. For every pound of fuel burned in an engine, the combustion process also generates a pound of water! If engine sump temperatures rarely exceed 212 degrees (water’s boiling point), the water will mix with sulfur (another combustion by-product) and create acids that can eventually damage bearings.

As for ultimate power potential, the general consensus among most racers is that hot oil and cool water make more power in most engines. Cold engine oil causes excessive frictional drag on the bearings and cylinder walls. A quality conventional motor oil will tolerate oil sump temperatures of up to 250 degrees, but starts breaking down over 275 degrees. The traditional approach is to try to hold oil temperatures between 230 and 260 degrees. Even on a short-duration, drag-only combo where oil is frequently changed, I would not want to routinely see under-200-degree oil temps.

A full-synthetic oil will withstand sump temperatures in excess of 300 degrees, and for hard-core professional racing, some oval-track race teams are experimenting with ultra-thin, specially formulated, race-only synthetics operating at 350 degrees or even higher.
Article points out water boils at 212 but at pressure, like your oil system, the boiling point is higher. Also unclear to me why it has to get to boiling temperature to remove the water. Take a pan of any liquid and heat it up and the water evaporates even if it doesn't boil. Rate of evaporation is low at low temperatures (or stops in a closed system) and speeds up as the temperature rises. It will be really slow at 50F and much faster at 200F. I think water simmering is at less than 200 and you can see the water leaving the pan.

Not saying the temperatures in the article are wrong just questioning how they determined these numbers.

Last, not sure where the oil temperature is reading but if the pan I would expect this is the lowest temperature of the system and the oil with water in it is seeing a higher temperature than this as it circulates (guess).

I don't know what deposits are burning at 220F as this is pretty low for a solid to burn.
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      04-15-2019, 05:47 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Article points out water boils at 212 but at pressure, like your oil system, the boiling point is higher.
The oil in your crankcase is not under pressure, or very low pressure, by design. This is why you have crankcase ventilation. The oil in the oil passages is under pressure, but not much of it is in the passages at one time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Last, not sure where the oil temperature is reading but if the pan I would expect this is the lowest temperature of the system and the oil with water in it is seeing a higher temperature than this as it circulates (guess).
Your oil is at it's highest temp in the pan, not lowest. The oil drops into the pan after servicing the bearings. From there the pump sucks it up, sends it out through the cooler and then back into the motor to the bearings.
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      04-16-2019, 08:07 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael9218 View Post
The oil in your crankcase is not under pressure, or very low pressure, by design. This is why you have crankcase ventilation. The oil in the oil passages is under pressure, but not much of it is in the passages at one time.



Your oil is at it's highest temp in the pan, not lowest. The oil drops into the pan after servicing the bearings. From there the pump sucks it up, sends it out through the cooler and then back into the motor to the bearings.
Part of the oil system is under pressure as there is an idiot light to show if it loses pressure.

The highest temperature is where the heat is produced, not in the pan. I think the oil at the piston rings it is much hotter than in the pan.
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      04-16-2019, 06:44 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
The highest temperature is where the heat is produced, not in the pan. I think the oil at the piston rings it is much hotter than in the pan.
Brilliant observation...let us know how you plan to read the temp of the oil at the rings...

Oh, and where does that oil go after getting heated by the cylinder walls? Into the pan where your oil temp sensor is. Maybe I should clarify for you since you seem to be very literal. The oil in the pan is the hottest WHERE IT CAN BE MEASURED.
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      04-17-2019, 08:12 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael9218 View Post
Brilliant observation...let us know how you plan to read the temp of the oil at the rings...

Oh, and where does that oil go after getting heated by the cylinder walls? Into the pan where your oil temp sensor is. Maybe I should clarify for you since you seem to be very literal. The oil in the pan is the hottest WHERE IT CAN BE MEASURED.
I never said I wanted or could read the oil at it's highest temperature only that the pan where it is being read isn't the highest temp the oil sees. When you said "Your oil is at it's highest temp in the pan" I took this literally. I guess I should have realized that pan and engine are the same.

Aircraft engine but the theory is the same, you don't have to get the gauge to 220 for the oil to see 220 https://generalaviationnews.com/2018...rature-engine/
Quote:
So what is the best oil temperature for a good aircraft engine at cruise conditions? I like to see at or near that 180° to 200° range.

This means that the highest temperature that the oil will see in the engine is in the 230° to 250° range, which will boil off the moisture.
https://www.reiffpreheat.com/Article-Visser3.htm

And this -

Quote:
We have determined that on most non-turbocharged engines, this instantaneous oil temperature is usually about 50° hotter than the temperature of the oil going into the engine. If we add the 50° to an engine oil temperature of only 160°, we see that the oil never gets over the 212° mark, which is the boiling point of water. By running at 180° during cruise, the oil should be hot enough to boil off the normal condensation in a one-hour flight.

On the high end, the maximum preferred oil temperature is around 200°. This guideline is based on data that show the instantaneous temperature of the oil coming off the pistons for many turbocharged piston engines is about 75° above the temperature of the oil going into the engine. This means that if you are running an oil temperature of 240° during cruise, the oil is actually reaching 315° at some point in the engine. This is OK for a short time during climb-out, but if your engine operates for extended periods at this temperature, it can lead to coking and an increased level of deposits in your engine.
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      04-17-2019, 08:53 AM   #77
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Another chart showing bearing temp far greater than pan temp.

http://performanceunlimited.com/docu...tempguide.html

Quote:
*Engine bearing surface temperature is typically 75 degrees hotter than the temperature in the pan
Based on this chart I can't see any reason to get the oil temperature gauge over 195 F. and wouldn't want to see a gauge temp of 230.
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      04-19-2019, 07:50 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Another chart showing bearing temp far greater than pan temp.

http://performanceunlimited.com/documents/tempguide.html

Quote:
*Engine bearing surface temperature is typically 75 degrees hotter than the temperature in the pan
Based on this chart I can't see any reason to get the oil temperature gauge over 195 F. and wouldn't want to see a gauge temp of 230.
Good luck finding a car that only has an oil temp of 194 during 20 min at full pace on track ! In the real world I was able to limit my oil temps to the 240's even on hot 80 plus southern humidity conditions making 500plus hp with a 34 row setrab oil cooler. With the proper oil that is acceptable and my 40k track miles confirms that . Bearings in stock form are too narrow on the S54 and you will have wear at any temp , even on the street . That's why I went with the Lang racing widened bearing setup after my vibration damper failed and I was tearing down to look for bearing wear anyway .
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      04-24-2019, 10:22 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Good luck finding a car that only has an oil temp of 194 during 20 min at full pace on track ! In the real world I was able to limit my oil temps to the 240's even on hot 80 plus southern humidity conditions making 500plus hp with a 34 row setrab oil cooler. With the proper oil that is acceptable and my 40k track miles confirms that . Bearings in stock form are too narrow on the S54 and you will have wear at any temp , even on the street . That's why I went with the Lang racing widened bearing setup after my vibration damper failed and I was tearing down to look for bearing wear anyway .
G
With a CSF front mounted Oil Cooler and no FI, oil temps still hover around 250*F towards the end of a 20min session on track. I agree with you, this sort of wear will occur regardless of street or track driving.
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