ZPOST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   ZPOST > BMW Z4 Technical Talk > Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain Modifications
  TireRack

SUPPORT ZPOST BY DOING YOUR TIRERACK SHOPPING FROM THIS BANNER, THANKS!
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-20-2019, 07:33 PM   #1
JimBob0047
First Lieutenant
269
Rep
382
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4MR
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Upcoming Rod Bearings 02/2019

Evening y'all!

Having the rod bearings done next week. Car is a 2006 with 58k miles. I've only owned it for 4 months so I am doing it as preventative maintenance/peace of mind.

I ordered the ECS kit with WPC treated bearings and OEM bolts, I am also doing the VAC oil pump upgrade kit, CPV valve, motor mounts and motor mount arms bolts.

Anything I'm missing? Trying to save as much future labor as possible.

Thanks for your time!
Appreciate 0
      02-20-2019, 07:54 PM   #2
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Vanos bolts and vanos hub.
The tabs on the hub can break. I think turner or vac has hubs with thicker tabs, but the hub from turbotoy is the best:
http://www.tt-hub.com/
Its made from C300 steel, which is a very very exotic type of steel, normally only found in aircraft (the vac vanos hub is made from 'ordinairy' tool steel (4340))

That vac oil pump upgrade kit, is that only the upgrade for the chainsprocket or do you get a complete new/refurbished oil pump?

The s54 oil pump also has an internal piston (to control the oil pressure) that is prone to wear. See my post here:
https://www.zpost.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=50

Also the chain guards on the s54 are an attention item. But thats I think also quite a job because you have to remove the timing chain cover.
You can also replace the timing chain tensioner, but I think that that issue is a bit exaggerated.
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t
Appreciate 1
      02-20-2019, 08:05 PM   #3
JimBob0047
First Lieutenant
269
Rep
382
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4MR
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Vanos bolts and vanos hub.
The tabs on the hub can break. I think turner or vac has hubs with thicker tabs, but the hub from turbotoy is the best:
http://www.tt-hub.com/
Its made from C300 steel, which is a very very exotic type of steel, normally only found in aircraft (the vac vanos hub is made from 'ordinairy' tool steel (4340))

That vac oil pump upgrade kit, is that only the upgrade for the chainsprocket or do you get a complete new/refurbished oil pump?

The s54 oil pump also has an internal piston (to control the oil pressure) that is prone to wear. See my post here:
https://www.zpost.com/forums/showpos...8;postcount=50

Also the chain guards on the s54 are an attention item. But thats I think also quite a job because you have to remove the timing chain cover.
You can also replace the timing chain tensioner, but I think that that issue is a bit exaggerated.

Yes only sprocket.

The internal piston is not interchangeable because the s54 has a different pressure which is why bmw doesn't sell it separately for the the S54.

Would the vanos hub cost me a lot more labor while doing the rod bearings?
Appreciate 0
      02-20-2019, 10:24 PM   #4
XMetal
Colonel
XMetal's Avatar
United_States
1097
Rep
2,846
Posts

Drives: Anything
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 Z4M Coupe  [10.00]
2018 Audi S3  [0.00]
2004 X5  [8.50]
Do the Vanos and upper chain tensioner when you do valve adjustments. Rod bearings is bottom end work
__________________
Appreciate 1
      02-21-2019, 03:25 AM   #5
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob0047 View Post

The internal piston is not interchangeable because the s54 has a different pressure which is why bmw doesn't sell it separately for the the S54.
This is not true. The s54 has the same nominal oil pressure as the M54 engine. They are both rated/regulated at 4 bar. This data is available in TIS.

BMW doesnt sell that piston for the s54 pump, but somehow in Germany tuners can get their hands on them and coat them with an anti wear surface. I wonder if its different from the m54 one. I've never seen anyone actually do that comparison.
Oil pressure is also set by the spring tension behind that piston.


Quote:
Would the vanos hub cost me a lot more labor while doing the rod bearings?
Ask your mechanic if you're not doing the job yourself.
Obviously every other job is more labour, but so is putting a car on a lift and getting things settled with a customer.
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t
Appreciate 0
      02-21-2019, 05:54 AM   #6
JimBob0047
First Lieutenant
269
Rep
382
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4MR
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob0047 View Post

The internal piston is not interchangeable because the s54 has a different pressure which is why bmw doesn't sell it separately for the the S54.
This is not true. The s54 has the same nominal oil pressure as the M54 engine. They are both rated/regulated at 4 bar. This data is available in TIS.

BMW doesnt sell that piston for the s54 pump, but somehow in Germany tuners can get their hands on them and coat them with an anti wear surface. I wonder if its different from the m54 one. I've never seen anyone actually do that comparison.
Oil pressure is also set by the spring tension behind that piston.


Quote:
Would the vanos hub cost me a lot more labor while doing the rod bearings?
Ask your mechanic if you're not doing the job yourself.
Obviously every other job is more labour, but so is putting a car on a lift and getting things settled with a customer.

Do you have a link to the oil pump piston because I cannot find one for sale.
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      02-21-2019, 08:33 AM   #7
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob0047 View Post
Do you have a link to the oil pump piston because I cannot find one for sale.
https://www.facebook.com/Motorsportt...3150009130028/
http://www.ma-autoservice.de/

I don't know if they sell them seperately or to the US or whatever.
But they have coated oilpressure pistons. That first link claims that they are DLC coated (for €80 when fitted with their rodbearingservice), which is a very very wear resistant coating.
Most germans speak English I think, for sure if money is to be made...

My guess is that they are m50 pistons. Those pistons are also used in the s52 oil pump and the euro s50b30. When the s50b32 (euro) came out bmw stopped listing those parts but my guess is that the design didn't change.
Lots of parts this deep in an engine dont change the complete lifecycle of an engine family (for instance the m54 still has the same rodbearings as the 1972 m10 engine, thats why you can pick up a set for 20 bucks).
Just a thought
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t

Last edited by GuidoK; 02-21-2019 at 08:38 AM..
Appreciate 0
      02-27-2019, 10:44 AM   #8
JimBob0047
First Lieutenant
269
Rep
382
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4MR
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Dropped off at GT Peace in Chantilly, VA stay tuned!
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      02-27-2019, 11:36 AM   #9
WeekendWarriorz
Captain
WeekendWarriorz's Avatar
670
Rep
754
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4M
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Anaheim Hills, CA

iTrader: (4)

After you change the rod bearings run redline 5w50 and you won't have to deal with rod bearing issues again.
__________________
2006 Z4 M Roadster Black/Imola Red, FBO VF-Engineering, e85 Flex Fuel-Sold
2012 BMW 135i N55 DCT Alpine White/Coral Red, FBO, TBI, Full e85, JB4 BEF-Sold
2006 Z4 M Roadster Black/Black-Sold
2021 M2 Competition DCT Hockenheim Silver
Appreciate 1
      02-27-2019, 12:41 PM   #10
JimBob0047
First Lieutenant
269
Rep
382
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4MR
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz View Post
After you change the rod bearings run redline 5w50 and you won't have to deal with rod bearing issues again.

Thank you, any data to back this up?
Appreciate 0
      02-27-2019, 12:50 PM   #11
WeekendWarriorz
Captain
WeekendWarriorz's Avatar
670
Rep
754
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4M
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Anaheim Hills, CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob0047 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz View Post
After you change the rod bearings run redline 5w50 and you won't have to deal with rod bearing issues again.

Thank you, any data to back this up?
It's been thrown out there by the famous engine builder Troy jeup who specializes in N/A BMW engine builds like strokers etc. Basically when comparing engines that have the same if not tighter clearances they don't use the garbage 10w60 which shears down to almost a 40 weight after a few heat cycles and provides better protection since engines with this sort of bearing spec all use 5w50. I believe he has 700+ motors running out there all on 5w50 and not one failure. I just picked up my second M roady and got 5w50 redline.
Attached Images
   
__________________
2006 Z4 M Roadster Black/Imola Red, FBO VF-Engineering, e85 Flex Fuel-Sold
2012 BMW 135i N55 DCT Alpine White/Coral Red, FBO, TBI, Full e85, JB4 BEF-Sold
2006 Z4 M Roadster Black/Black-Sold
2021 M2 Competition DCT Hockenheim Silver
Appreciate 0
      02-27-2019, 03:53 PM   #12
XMetal
Colonel
XMetal's Avatar
United_States
1097
Rep
2,846
Posts

Drives: Anything
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 Z4M Coupe  [10.00]
2018 Audi S3  [0.00]
2004 X5  [8.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz View Post
After you change the rod bearings run redline 5w50 and you won't have to deal with rod bearing issues again.
Really? My own experiments indicated otherwise. I did run 1 oil change with Redline 5W50 showing no benefit from it...and that was from a short run too!

https://www.zpost.com/forums/showpos...72&postcount=1
Appreciate 0
      02-27-2019, 03:59 PM   #13
WeekendWarriorz
Captain
WeekendWarriorz's Avatar
670
Rep
754
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4M
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Anaheim Hills, CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMetal View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz View Post
After you change the rod bearings run redline 5w50 and you won't have to deal with rod bearing issues again.
Really? My own experiments indicated otherwise. I did run 1 oil change with Redline 5W50 showing no benefit from it.

https://www.zpost.com/forums/showpos...38;postcount=1
I saw your thread a while ago, it does take a few flushes for it to show. I believe Redline 5w50 has more zinc and phosphorus in it. Troy's has built over 700+ engines including supercharged builds, strokers, 9k rpm redline and hasn't had a single rod bearing failure. I would check out his Instagram I believe it's @troyjeup. I also did meet a guy at euroklasse with an e46 m3 that's vf570 supercharged for 80k+ miles and is on stock rod bearings and he's currently at 175k miles, using 5w50 redline as well. I know the data is minimal, but at this point 10w60 is proven to fail eventually so why not make the switch to something that has shown no failures thus far.
__________________
2006 Z4 M Roadster Black/Imola Red, FBO VF-Engineering, e85 Flex Fuel-Sold
2012 BMW 135i N55 DCT Alpine White/Coral Red, FBO, TBI, Full e85, JB4 BEF-Sold
2006 Z4 M Roadster Black/Black-Sold
2021 M2 Competition DCT Hockenheim Silver
Appreciate 0
      02-27-2019, 04:24 PM   #14
XMetal
Colonel
XMetal's Avatar
United_States
1097
Rep
2,846
Posts

Drives: Anything
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 Z4M Coupe  [10.00]
2018 Audi S3  [0.00]
2004 X5  [8.50]
Having too much zinc isn't a great thing either...Your cats would have a shorten life if too much of it gets into the combustion chamber. That's why a lot of "Race" oils that have lots of zinc have a "off road use only" label, meaning that you should run it without cats.

Believe what you want to believe, but I'm a data-minded person - show me data to prove it. If Liqui Moly can provide only 2ppm of lead wear after my rod bearing change, why would I need to look elsewhere?

Regarding that 175k miles M3 - I would be a believer if he pull the bearings and show no copper. Just because the car is still running doesn't mean that it won't throw a rod at any moment.
Appreciate 0
      02-27-2019, 05:44 PM   #15
WeekendWarriorz
Captain
WeekendWarriorz's Avatar
670
Rep
754
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4M
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Anaheim Hills, CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMetal View Post
Having too much zinc isn't a great thing either...Your cats would have a shorten life if too much of it gets into the combustion chamber. That's why a lot of "Race" oils that have lots of zinc have a "off road use only" label, meaning that you should run it without cats.

Believe what you want to believe, but I'm a data-minded person - show me data to prove it. If Liqui Moly can provide only 2ppm of lead wear after my rod bearing change, why would I need to look elsewhere?

Regarding that 175k miles M3 - I would be a believer if he pull the bearings and show no copper. Just because the car is still running doesn't mean that it won't throw a rod at any moment.
I mean are we really going to worry about the life of your cats? They're going to come off anyways...

I'm just going with the data that I've seen and the real world experience of other people. Again, 700+ built engines ranging from stock, stroker, and supercharged s54/s65/s85/s63tu's over multiple years and miles of racing that he's built and not one failure from rod bearings is enough for me to make a change. It's all personal preference to what you're comfortable running. But facts aside, 10w60 will cause your rod bearings to fail sooner or later. My car is at 53k miles and I'll be running redline 5w50 for the rest of its life, so if it fails I'll post my results. I probably will change the rod bearings as well when I get a blower on it with treated bearings for a piece of mind so I can see what type of wear (if any or a lot) there is with running 5w50.
__________________
2006 Z4 M Roadster Black/Imola Red, FBO VF-Engineering, e85 Flex Fuel-Sold
2012 BMW 135i N55 DCT Alpine White/Coral Red, FBO, TBI, Full e85, JB4 BEF-Sold
2006 Z4 M Roadster Black/Black-Sold
2021 M2 Competition DCT Hockenheim Silver
Appreciate 0
      02-28-2019, 01:07 AM   #16
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

The only way to tell if 5w50 gives longer bearing life is to open up an engine that has 50k mileage with 5w50 and examine the bearings.
I dont think zinc or phosphor additives will extend rodbearing life as I think the rodbearingwear in the s50/54/65/85 is an oil cavitation issue and not a friction wear issue.
The round spots that show as the initial wear pattern on bearings that start to show little wear are a tell tale sign to this.
Appreciate 0
      03-06-2019, 11:46 AM   #17
JimBob0047
First Lieutenant
269
Rep
382
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4MR
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Done. Showing significant wear at 58k. Car was babied by the last owner and I have driven like it's meant to be for 2k from 56k.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by JimBob0047; 03-06-2019 at 12:46 PM..
Appreciate 0
      03-06-2019, 01:04 PM   #18
W///
Lieutenant General
W///'s Avatar
7436
Rep
12,293
Posts

Drives: F82GTS, E36/E92M3, Z4M
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SC

iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob0047 View Post
Done. Showing significant wear at 58k. Car was babied by the last owner and I have driven like it's meant to be for 2k from 56k.
I'm going to try to do this job at the end of this year or maybe beginning of next on my friend's lift. Don't have the time right now.

Glad you got this taken care of early. Your car looks so clean.
__________________
Current:
16 F82 M4 GTS, Black Sapphire/Black, DCT
08 E92 M3, Sparkling Graphite/Bamboo Beige, 6MT
07 E85 Z4M Roadster, Alpine White/Red, 6MT
99 E36 M3, Techno Violet/Dove Grey, 6MT
Appreciate 1
      03-06-2019, 01:58 PM   #19
JimBob0047
First Lieutenant
269
Rep
382
Posts

Drives: 2006 Z4MR
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob0047 View Post
Done. Showing significant wear at 58k. Car was babied by the last owner and I have driven like it's meant to be for 2k from 56k.
I'm going to try to do this job at the end of this year or maybe beginning of next on my friend's lift. Don't have the time right now.

Glad you got this taken care of early. Your car looks so clean.

Thank you!
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      03-06-2019, 02:45 PM   #20
Azeka1
Lieutenant
Azeka1's Avatar
285
Rep
431
Posts

Drives: E86 M Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: NJ

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
Nice one, looks like you dodged a bullet! That is exactly how mine looked at the same exact miles.

Between the previous owner and myself, my 58K miles had quite a few track days on it. I think this really illustrates that regardless of how the S54 is driven, this issue really should be addressed sooner rather than later.
__________________
1995 E36 M3 | BMW CCA Club Racer - IP #34 | Gray / Blue / Orange | 261WHP | 2,700lbs
2013 E92 M3 Competition 6MT Slick Top | AW / Fox Red |
2006 E86 M Coupe | Silver Gray / Imola | JRZ RSTWO | APR Aero | Sparco Seats/Belts | Weichers Cage
Gone: 2017 Audi Q7 | 2011 E93 328i 6MT | 2014 Audi A6 | 2010 VW CC 2.0T | 2011 G37 S Coupe 6MT | 2004 G35 Coupe | SW20 MR2 Widebody Turbo
Appreciate 1
      04-28-2019, 09:18 AM   #21
griebel
Private First Class
59
Rep
116
Posts

Drives: Z4M
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Oregon WI

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2022 BMW X4  [0.00]
2018 M4  [0.00]
2008 Z4M  [0.00]
Just did mine with 63,000 miles but I went with the BE bearings. Mine looked just like yours.
Appreciate 1
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:17 AM.




zpost
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST