Working With Carver Subs.....

[gtMc]

Originally Posted by antennahead

Try moving your fader towards the front and take some of the sub boom out of the car, might help.

John

Done. That does help a little, but there is def still soemthing wrong. Atleast its tolerable now.

I am still going to have the amp looked at and also make sure the car isn't in any kind of transport mode. many thanks, this thread really helped shed some light on the topic.

[antennahead]

Originally Posted by gtrinks

Done. That does help a little, but there is def still soemthing wrong. Atleast its tolerable now.

I am still going to have the amp looked at and also make sure the car isn't in any kind of transport mode. many thanks, this thread really helped shed some light on the topic.

From what i have read, there is a lot of overlap in the frequency ranges and crossovers of these speakers. The front mids go from 100hz to 10,000hz. The kick panel woofers go from 50hz to 500hz. The Carver subs from 30hz to 150hz .............. I think this is a major cause of the muddy bottom. When I dialed back the 80hz and 200hz eq sliders, and faded it slightly towards the front, it actually started sounding good. The BSW mids also helped clean up the bass some, as the mid bass notes and overtones of the fundamental bass notes were cleaner.

[MHeavNC]

Got my amp replaced with the updated part # 65129138102.. (replaced #65129125751) These amps work with E83/E85/E86 models with top hi fi systems.. Once the new amp is installed, it has to be coded to your car.. This tells the amp if you have navigation/non navigation and if it is for the X3 or Z4..

Once the amp was hooked up the tech let me listen to it before it was coded.. It was horrible!!! AM radio with no bass... I let them code the new amp to my M Coupe and it sounded better, but it is nearly the same as it was with the other amp that I replaced.. So problem is not solved yet.. Work was done under warranty so no money out of my pocket... I am coming to the conclusion that it is not the amp, but a coding problem with my car.. There are two ways to prove my theory..

1. I could take my wife's amplifier from her 3.0i (which sounds great in my car but is coded for the her Top Hi Fi system without Nav) and have it coded to my car.. If it sounds terrible then there is coding issues with my car or with BMW software...


2. I could have my new amp coded to my wifes car which is the non nav top hi fi system.. If her system comes back to life with the new amp; that would help narrow it down to coding issues with my car...


Problem with (1) is that I don't want to mess with the only good sounding amplifier I have... Sounds great in both cars!!


BTW when I got home I took the new amp out of my M and switched it with my wife's car.. The new amp sounds just as bad in hers as it does mine.. Meanwhile, her amp is in my car and it sounds fantastic!! I would just keep it in there but the EQ doesn't work since it was coded for a non Nav car..

I am getting pretty frustrated..

Even though the problem is not yet resolved, the guys at the Dealer have been really helpful and worked with me to try and figure out what is going on... I was able to visit inside the shop while much of this was taking place.. Pretty cool experience..



If anyone reading this has upgraded their system and has a Top Hi Fi amp lying around, I would be interested in it as a test amp for coding.. Part #65129125751 or #65129138102

[elerner61]

I feel your pain. Technology run rampant!

Good to hear that the dealer has let you "in the loop" with regards to the troubleshooting they are doing.

I'm curious, when you say "coding the amp", how is this done (is there a data port on the amp? didn't notice one)? What are the information sources they use to determine what code to apply to the amp (VIN#, Audio System Type code....)

I would NOT mess with the coding of the amp in your wife's car. Screw that up and you are in for a world of hurt and you will hear about it every day until you resolve it (18+ years married).

[MHeavNC]

Originally Posted by elerner61

I feel your pain. Technology run rampant!

Good to hear that the dealer has let you "in the loop" with regards to the troubleshooting they are doing.

I'm curious, when you say "coding the amp", how is this done (is there a data port on the amp? didn't notice one)? What are the information sources they use to determine what code to apply to the amp (VIN#, Audio System Type code....)

I would NOT mess with the coding of the amp in your wife's car. Screw that up and you are in for a world of hurt and you will hear about it every day until you resolve it (18+ years married).

The way I understand it is that a new amp is just a passthrough until it is coded to your car through the ECU.. This tells the amp how to send power to your speakers and what functions are available to adjust sound.. Graphic EQ, types of DSP and other signals from Nav and Non Nav units...

My wife's car has the Top Hi Fi Business unit.. It has DSP but only a couple of settings.. Jazzclub/Concert/Church.. Along with separate Bass and Treble/Fader/Balance

My Coupe has the Top Hi Fi Navigation Unit.. It has DSP settings of Concert Hall/Jazzclub/Cathedral along with 3 custom presets through the 7 Band Graphic Equalizer.. It also has Room and Echo effects...

Both cars has the exact same amp until yesterday.. Part # 65129125751

When i swapped them, her amp made my car sound great but my DSP settings/effects/Graphic EQ wouldn't change the sound one bit.. However, I could use the separate Bass/Treble/Fader/Balance functions..

My amp made her car sound poor, and her DSP settings wouldn't change anything with the sound... However I could use the separate Bass/Treble etc....

My guess is that, although it is the same amp, her amp was coded to work with her Non Nav car and mine was coded to work with the Nav... Seems like the amplifier is more than,... an amplifier.. Maybe more like a musical conductor directing sound traffic and power.. I guess the ECU tells the amp what to do when it is coded.... To be honest, I think it is all a bunch of BS to save a few pennies and make it harder to work on our own cars... Unless you install a amp that was previously coded to your same exact system, you could have trouble getting things to work properly...

Having said that.. Both amps that I have had for my car sucked, while my wifes sounds great!

I would really love to code my wife's amp to my coupe to see if it still sounds great and makes all the functions work.. If it does, then we still have a amp problem with my new one.. If sound degrades back to sucking, then we have coding/ecu/BMW software problems... But do I risk the only good one I have?

<<<<FOUND THIS>>>>>

What does “coding” do?

When a dealer or specialized BMW mechanic connects a car to BMW’s proprietary computer to configure any of the computer-driven components, the process is called “coding.” The DSP amp is one of the computer-driven, configurable parts in the car. The biggest thing that coding does for a DSP amp is to configure it for a navigation-equipped car or a non-nav car. In a navigation-equipped car, the nav computer is the thing that controls the DSP amp. In cars without nav, then the DSP amp is controlled by either a separate DSP controller (like in the E38) or by the MID (E39 and X5). If the amp’s coding is mismatched (nav coding in a non-nav car, or vise versa), the amp will not receive control communications that it expects, so it will shut down after about 30 seconds. This is totally normal, until you get the amp coded—it is typical for folks who have done a nav retrofit or installed a used amp that was coded for another type of car.

The other major thing that I believe coding does is setup internal crossover frequencies and internal equalization settings that match the car’s acoustical characteristics and speaker arrangements. Think about it—BMW uses the very same amp in the E38, E39, and X5, yet they have very different cabin arrangements, numbers of speakers, and speaker placements. So, I am about 99% sure that the coding also sets up the amp for the specific model in which it is installed. My key support comes from the fact that I bought an amp coded for an X5 and installed it in my car. It sounded absolutely horrible, yet it was a perfectly good amp and several years newer than the one I had. The midrange was overly bright and almost droning, and it had no bass at all. I could not lower midrange equalizer settings enough to solve it. I originally upgraded to an amp that came from an E39 M5 with navigation, and it initially sounded OK in my car. However, after I got it coded in my car, it significantly improved the sound quality. (The difference between the E38 and E39 is not as dramatic as the X5, but you can still hear it in the amp.)

[gtMc]

Originally Posted by MHeavNC

Got my amp replaced with the updated part # 65129138102.. (replaced #65129125751) These amps work with E83/E85/E86 models with top hi fi systems.. Once the new amp is installed, it has to be coded to your car.. This tells the amp if you have navigation/non navigation and if it is for the X3 or Z4..

Once the amp was hooked up the tech let me listen to it before it was coded.. It was horrible!!! AM radio with no bass... I let them code the new amp to my M Coupe and it sounded better, but it is nearly the same as it was with the other amp that I replaced.. So problem is not solved yet.. Work was done under warranty so no money out of my pocket... I am coming to the conclusion that it is not the amp, but a coding problem with my car.. There are two ways to prove my theory..

1. I could take my wife's amplifier from her 3.0i (which sounds great in my car but is coded for the her Top Hi Fi system without Nav) and have it coded to my car.. If it sounds terrible then there is coding issues with my car or with BMW software...


2. I could have my new amp coded to my wifes car which is the non nav top hi fi system.. If her system comes back to life with the new amp; that would help narrow it down to coding issues with my car...


Problem with (1) is that I don't want to mess with the only good sounding amplifier I have... Sounds great in both cars!!


BTW when I got home I took the new amp out of my M and switched it with my wife's car.. The new amp sounds just as bad in hers as it does mine.. Meanwhile, her amp is in my car and it sounds fantastic!! I would just keep it in there but the EQ doesn't work since it was coded for a non Nav car..

I am getting pretty frustrated..

Even though the problem is not yet resolved, the guys at the Dealer have been really helpful and worked with me to try and figure out what is going on... I was able to visit inside the shop while much of this was taking place.. Pretty cool experience..



If anyone reading this has upgraded their system and has a Top Hi Fi amp lying around, I would be interested in it as a test amp for coding.. Part #65129125751 or #65129138102

I vote for #2, and trying it that way both in your car and in hers. If this makes the new one work as well as her current one does, then you have the problem narrowed as you said.

Agree on not messing with your wifes amp, as its the only one that seems to sound good in both your car and hers.

[elerner61]

In theory it all sounds great... until there are problems.

I can't help think that a simpler solution (hardware with configuration via hard coded dongles, for example) would be more cost efficient for BMW than the labor wasted trying to fix problems like yours.

The information you're posting is great. Please continue to post (painful as it may be). This could save others down the road an incredible amount of troubleshooting time.

[antennahead]

Besides telling the amp whether you have Nav or not (impacting the adjustable 7 band graphic versus just 3 pre-sets in non-nav cars), the coding also sets crossovers and I think applies a pre-set EQ curve for the vehicle in question. I have a local friend with a 2007 M coupe. The other day we got together so he could hear my BSW stage one upgrade. His reaction to my sound was "OMG, your system sounds great"............... this was not just an improvement from the new mids and tweets, it was still much better sounding than his system before the upgrade. He kept saying how much and how great my bass sounded, and his did not. I shared my EQ settings with him as a new starting point. Next time we can get together, I want to sit in his car and tweak away at the EQ and fader and see if I can improve his sound. The Carver/Top Hi Fi system was developed for the roadster, that may be why it shows limitations in the Coupe, although proper EQ can solve a lot of issues. I have too much bass when the syetem is set flat, and have the 80hz down 2 or 3 notches, depending on the source material. I will also adjust the fader a little towards the front if I am using -2 versus -3 on 80hz. 200hz is always down -4. I also have the room and echo set as low as possible. I experimented with making the room a little larger, this will increase the echo automatically if you increase the room size. I went back to "flat" on the room and echo size. Another thing I feel really impacts these systems is the speed sensitive volume adjustment and the "loudness" contour. I went into the hidden menu and turned the speed sensitive volume (gal) all the way down (1). I swear I think the system screws with the bass depending on speed and how loud you have the system cranked as well as whether the top is down or not. Reducing the speed sensitive volume to 1 seems to help a lot. What I wish I knew was at what frequency and how wide the sweep the bass and treble controls impacted. I have searched and can't find that published anywhere. They are flat (middle position) in my setup.

Overall I am very happy with the sound now. it is very good for a factory system IMO, especially with the BSW upgrade............... the silk tweeters being the biggest improvement.

[MHeavNC]

Originally Posted by antennahead

Besides telling the amp whether you have Nav or not (impacting the adjustable 7 band graphic versus just 3 pre-sets in non-nav cars), the coding also sets crossovers and I think applies a pre-set EQ curve for the vehicle in question. I have a local friend with a 2007 M coupe. The other day we got together so he could hear my BSW stage one upgrade. His reaction to my sound was "OMG, your system sounds great"............... this was not just an improvement from the new mids and tweets, it was still much better sounding than his system before the upgrade. He kept saying how much and how great my bass sounded, and his did not. I shared my EQ settings with him as a new starting point. Next time we can get together, I want to sit in his car and tweak away at the EQ and fader and see if I can improve his sound. The Carver/Top Hi Fi system was developed for the roadster, that may be why it shows limitations in the Coupe, although proper EQ can solve a lot of issues. I have too much bass when the syetem is set flat, and have the 80hz down 2 or 3 notches, depending on the source material. I will also adjust the fader a little towards the front if I am using -2 versus -3 on 80hz. 200hz is always down -4. I also have the room and echo set as low as possible. I experimented with making the room a little larger, this will increase the echo automatically if you increase the room size. I went back to "flat" on the room and echo size. Another thing I feel really impacts these systems is the speed sensitive volume adjustment and the "loudness" contour. I went into the hidden menu and turned the speed sensitive volume (gal) all the way down (1). I swear I think the system screws with the bass depending on speed and how loud you have the system cranked as well as whether the top is down or not. Reducing the speed sensitive volume to 1 seems to help a lot. What I wish I knew was at what frequency and how wide the sweep the bass and treble controls impacted. I have searched and can't find that published anywhere. They are flat (middle position) in my setup.

Overall I am very happy with the sound now. it is very good for a factory system IMO, especially with the BSW upgrade............... the silk tweeters being the biggest improvement.

It may have been developed for the roadster but it can sound great in a Coupe too.. Case in point is me putting my wife's amp in my car.. My system sounds just as good or better when I put her amp in my car.. There is something going on with coding in the M Coupes.. I have another amp on the way from a M Coupe to test.. It will be the fourth amp I have had in my car...

1. The Original coded to my car. (terrible)
2. My Wife's coded to her car. (great!!)
3. The dealer replacement coded to my car.. (terrible)
4. Amp out of another M Coupe with Navi coded to his car. (verdict not yet in)

Really what I need is an amp out of a Roadster with Navi.. What I am planning on doing is if amp "4" sounds terrible I am going to have it coded to my wife's car then installed into my car.. I won't be able to use the 7 band EQ but it will sound great.. (95% sure)

If for some reason amp "4" sounds good, then I am done.. But I am not that lucky..

If I ever get this problem solved then I will get the BSW stage 1 upgrade for both our cars.. BTW, I have tried all settings and reduced the GAL to 1 like you said.. Problem is that I have no bass, just noise.... The carver subs just flutter out of control with little sound... With my wife's amp installed they are tight and produce good bass.. With my wife's amp I have to lower the bass down below the halfway point... Unfortunately the EQ won't work due to coding....

[mousitch]

Keep us updated. My rear subs just rattle like they are blown or way underpowered. Especially at low level.

[MHeavNC]

Tested the fourth amp the other day and it sounds the same as the others that were coded to my car.. NOT GOOD.. This particular amp was coded to another 2008 M Coupe with Navigation.. It came from Chris Fines Coupe... Chris told me that both his old M Roadster and his fathers M Roadster's audio systems sounded great.. He said his system in the Coupe always sounded bad.. It has to be some sort of coding problem for the Coupes.. At least I am not alone.. I am just going to code his old amp to my wife's 3.0i and install it in my M.. I will not be able to use the EQ but at least it will sound great.. I will let you guys know if that works.. If it does then we will know that the amps are probably not the problem...

Maybe BSW can release Stage 2 with the amplifier sometime this year..

[mousitch]

Was gonna take mine into the dealership and get a warranty fix. Sounds like this may not be such a hot idea as I dont really want a tech tearing into the back of my coupe for no reason. Damn, I was sure the amp was cooked. Of course I never heard it new. The subs are just real "bouncy" as in distortion at low levels, especially with radio.

[elerner61]

It's easier to access the amp in the coupe than in the roadster. IMO, the sound quality from the radio/tuner is horrendous. If your car/sub sounds ok using a CD as the source I wouldn't assume your amp is having problems.

[MHeavNC]

Originally Posted by mousitch

Was gonna take mine into the dealership and get a warranty fix. Sounds like this may not be such a hot idea as I dont really want a tech tearing into the back of my coupe for no reason. Damn, I was sure the amp was cooked. Of course I never heard it new. The subs are just real &quot;bouncy&quot; as in distortion at low levels, especially with radio.

Take it to the Dealer anyway.. It is still possible that I have had bad amps installed... I still think it is the coding, but I will find out soon..

I finally stole my wife's amplifier from her 3.0i.. I took an extended drive and her amp in my car sounds glorious!!!! I had to detail her car to smooth this over.. Lol... Anyway, I installed amp 4 into her car and it sounds like chit.. She is not happy.. I am going to get the amp coded to her car, and I bet it will sound great again.. If this happens then we will know that the amps are not the problem. It is the coding software..

[gtMc]

Originally Posted by MHeavNC

I am going to get the amp coded to her car, and I bet it will sound great again.. If this happens then we will know that the amps are not the problem. It is the coding software..

Will be interesting to see the results. Getting closer... this could end up bieng worth a shot for a lot of us, I'll try it as well. Wish I could recode it myself.

[MHeavNC]

Originally Posted by gtMc

Will be interesting to see the results. Getting closer... this could end up bieng worth a shot for a lot of us, I'll try it as well. Wish I could recode it myself.

Well, yes and no... I actually hope that it is the amps.. If it is coding then it will make it more difficult to correct.. I think that at some point in time, coding for the coupes changed.. Since the coding is supplied to our VIN #s it will be hard to convince someone at BMW to change that.. (not sure they could anyway) If I took my M Coupe to BMW tomorrow and they checked for updates through the ECU, the computer will ask to code the amp since it is my wife's amp.. I do NOT want them to do that in fear of it sounding bad again.. I think that any replacement amp coded to my car will sound bad... If my theory is correct then I have to make sure that they don't code the amp in my car every time I take it in for service.. Every time they plug me up it will ask for it...

Like I said before, my M has my wife's amp and her roadster has the amp from another M Coupe.. Hers, currently, sounds pretty bad.. If I get hers coded and it sounds good again then we know the problem is not the amps.. That is all fine and dandy, but it means that there is a more serious problem that we can't do anything about.. If it is coding and not the amps, it would make it difficult to find amps that will sound good in our M Coupes.. In summary, I think the Coupes are coded different that the Roadsters. Unfortunately it produces poor sound.. but I have no idea if this is just the 2008 M Coupes or not.. All I do know is that I have had 4 amps in my car and only one sounds good.. It is the one from my wife's 2007 Roadster... It also happens to be the only one that sounds good in her car too.. The question remains, will amp 4 come back to life when I get it coded to her car?? We will find out pretty soon...

[danlauz]

I had previously a 2007 m coupe without navigation and the sound was much better than my 2007 m coupe with navigation. ..

[MHeavNC]

Originally Posted by danlauz

I had previously a 2007 m coupe without navigation and the sound was much better than my 2007 m coupe with navigation. ..

That opens up the possibility that it could be coding for Coupes with Navigation.. Then again, it could aways be the amps.. Hopefully I will know more on Saturday after I get an amp (that sounds like crap currently) coded to a Non-Navi Roadster.....

[mousitch]

I have a 2008 coupe w/o nav and it sounds like poop. Hope its my amp and not a coding issue that has made it sound this way since new. Not going to get in to be looked at to April or so.

[MHeavNC]

At the dealer right now.. Hopefully we will narrow down the problems today.

[gtMc]

MHeaven I think you have some good news?....
Mousitch, you and I have same exact build and same problem as I am sure many others do too...

[MHeavNC]

I will try and have a write up later.. All I can say is that the amps are not the problem.. There are coding issues with Coupes..