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      12-06-2019, 06:29 PM   #1
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Exclamation About That Bonkers Crazy Shootout in Rush Hour Traffic in Miami

What in the complete and utter FUCK!?!?!?!?!

I've watched this and other footage several times and I still can't believe WTF I watched.
this is some of the most Horrific Disregard for human life by Police EVER!!!

This reminded me of that shootout in the movie Sicario!

Since when do or can Police use innocent bystanders inside of their vehicles as shields in a high powered shootout? When can Police disregard a innocent hostage?

The implications of this incident are tremendous.

Just wooooooow.....

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      12-06-2019, 06:31 PM   #2
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And of course I'm very aware of the back story. Obviously 2 crazy fuckers who committed Aggravated Assault and Kidnapping. But I can't imagine the repercussions of the final outcome in this situation...
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      12-06-2019, 06:37 PM   #3
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Id b pissed if I were a bystander shot dead by police.
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      12-06-2019, 06:38 PM   #4
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I’d b pissed if I were a bystander shot dead by police.
Hell i'd file a report about it.
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      12-06-2019, 06:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSTYLE View Post
What in the complete and utter FUCK!?!?!?!?!

I've watched this and other footage several times and I still can't believe WTF I watched.
this is some of the most Horrific Disregard for human life by Police EVER!!!

This reminded me of that shootout in the movie Sicario!

Since when do or can Police use innocent bystanders inside of their vehicles as shields in a high powered shootout? When can Police disregard a innocent hostage?

The implications of this incident are tremendous.

Just wooooooow.....

Agreed, I'm extremely supportive of the police and hate second guessing them/their decisions in the heat of the moment (I went to school for LE and trained/volunteered with a local PD for years).......but geezus. I to can't believe what I just watched and the decisions that where made. Especially using civilian vehicles like they are SWAT vehicles for cover while firing. They obviously are making the civilians inside those vehicles targets. I'm truly dumbfounded. If they wanted to take them down it appears they had many opportunities prior to this when there were hardly any civilians around.

You are correct, this will be talked about, litigated, studied and eventually turned into a training opportunity for future officers in the years to come.

Last edited by minn19; 12-06-2019 at 07:02 PM..
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      12-06-2019, 07:02 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Agreed, I'm extremely supportive of the police and hate second guessing them/their decisions in the heat of the moment (I went to school for LE and trained/volunteered with a local PD for years).......but geezus. I to can't believe what I just watched and the decisions that where made. Especially using civilian vehicles like they are SWAT vehicles for cover while firing. They obviously are making the civilians inside those vehicles targets. I'm truly dumbfounded. If they wanted to take them down it appears they had many opportunities prior to this when there hardly any civilians around.

You are correct, this will be talked about, litigated, studied and eventually turned into a training opportunity for future officers in the years to come.
Well said. And so very true about stopping the vehicle waaaaaaaaay before it stopped on a busy freeway like that. Hell the chase went on for 20 Miles!!!
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      12-06-2019, 07:50 PM   #7
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Oh WTF? I'm just sick watching this.
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      12-06-2019, 07:55 PM   #8
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I’m not sure how the chase got out of Miami. Coral Gables to the highway is most often gridlocked or nearly gridlocked from mid-afternoon through rush hour so unless they were going over sidewalks or plowing through cars I can’t imagine how they even made it to the highway. Even once on the highway, it is packed from Miami all the way to the area it eventually stopped. (It is highly unlikely there would be any places without civilians on this ride BTW.)

I also think, however, this was a no-win situation for the police. Without saying I agree with how they handled it, imagine if they instead did not give chase and the hostage got shot it the head while the criminals remained on the loose on a shooting rampage. The police would also be second-guessed in that scenario. Again, not suggesting giving chase into a crowded highway and engaging in a shoot out was the right answer.

Anyway it is under investigation so I’m sure we’ll be hearing more about it over the next year or so.
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      12-06-2019, 08:09 PM   #9
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As a ups driver myself this hit really close to home. I deliver in some not so friendly areas and it just makes you think that one day you might not come home. The driver was 27 and had two kids horrible what happened.
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      12-06-2019, 08:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanovic View Post
As a ups driver myself this hit really close to home. I deliver in some not so friendly areas and it just makes you think that one day you might not come home. The driver was 27 and had two kids horrible what happened.
Yes it's really horrible. Reports are that he was a fairly new driver and covering that route for someone else for the day.
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      12-06-2019, 08:16 PM   #11
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This happened a few miles from where I live. In fact, my wife saw the chase go by her office building. Absolutely crazy!

Simply put, I am disgusted and actually felt sick to my stomach about this whole thing.
I can't image being in that situation, but I for sure thought once the truck came to a stop, they would have a sniper team in place and get a negotiator out.

Maybe there was just no time for anything. I think RickFLM4 is right, there was just no win situation...

What makes it even worse (yes, it gets worse), is that the driver was only 27 years old, and get this, he had just finished his training, so this was his first day as a solo-driver! And he leaves behind a 1-year-old daughter...

Having a newborn girl myself, I just can't.
I wouldn't be surprised if they make a movie about this.
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      12-06-2019, 08:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxTHIR13ENxx View Post
This happened a few miles from where I live. In fact, my wife saw the chase go by her office building. Absolutely crazy!

Simply put, I am disgusted and actually felt sick to my stomach about this whole thing.
I can't image being in that situation, but I for sure thought once the truck came to a stop, they would have a sniper team in place and get a negotiator out.

Maybe there was just no time for anything. I think RickFLM4 is right, there was just no win situation...

What makes it even worse (yes, it gets worse), is that the driver was only 27 years old, and get this, he had just finished his training, so this was his first day as a solo-driver! And he leaves behind a 1-year-old daughter...

Having a newborn girl myself, I just can't.
I wouldn't be surprised if they make a movie about this.
His family released a statement saying he had two daughters 3 and 6 I believe. Regardless its a horrible situation. Our trucks are nothing but aluminum idk what the cops were thinking honestly. There is a video I saw where he is crawling out the passenger door and bullets just raining down.
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      12-06-2019, 08:36 PM   #13
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Doesn't every UPS truck have GPS?

What was the need to pursue them?


The mind of virtually everyone is the same, when you feel threatened you defend yourself.
The chase made them feel threatened. Remove the threat, make them feel safe and use the GPS to arrest them once in a safer location or stopped at their destination. I mean you can't tell me a chopper could have been out of sight and had an eye on them.


I'm always dumbfounded at this theory that stopping them sooner will prevent more harm. It simply is not true.
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      12-07-2019, 08:18 AM   #14
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I'm more dumbfounded that civilians are standing around taking videos rather than getting the hell out of dodge so they can make it home to their families.
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      12-07-2019, 08:34 AM   #15
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i didn't like it either, but i think another fear would be them separating and carjacking two separate cars, and potentially having more hostages. in the moment, mistakes happen. while i agree covering behind other vehicles in traffic is less than ideal- consider the human factor in this where men and women that showed up for work that day are trying to survive as tunnel vision creeps in.
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      12-07-2019, 09:06 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Agreed, I'm extremely supportive of the police and hate second guessing them/their decisions in the heat of the moment (I went to school for LE and trained/volunteered with a local PD for years).......but geezus. I to can't believe what I just watched and the decisions that where made. Especially using civilian vehicles like they are SWAT vehicles for cover while firing. They obviously are making the civilians inside those vehicles targets. I'm truly dumbfounded. If they wanted to take them down it appears they had many opportunities prior to this when there were hardly any civilians around.

You are correct, this will be talked about, litigated, studied and eventually turned into a training opportunity for future officers in the years to come.
This. Exactly. Nothing more need be said.

When I was in telecommunications Miami was in my span of control. Nothing that happens there has surprised me in more than 23 years but this is beyond the pale.
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      12-07-2019, 09:26 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iminhell1 View Post
Doesn't every UPS truck have GPS?

What was the need to pursue them?


The mind of virtually everyone is the same, when you feel threatened you defend yourself.
The chase made them feel threatened. Remove the threat, make them feel safe and use the GPS to arrest them once in a safer location or stopped at their destination. I mean you can't tell me a chopper could have been out of sight and had an eye on them.


I'm always dumbfounded at this theory that stopping them sooner will prevent more harm. It simply is not true.
Law enforcement is responding to an armed robbery that became a gunfight. The perpetrators then carjacked a truck an took a person hostage.

First, I can guarantee you the hostage and his loved ones wouldn't like your plan to "remove the threat" of law enforcement and let them get away. Sure you'll find the truck, but we're not trying to protect the citizens from the truck! It's the guys IN THE TRUCK we're chasing. Can you imagine being held hostage and the cops chasing your hostage takers stop their pursuit? I'd be furious.

Also, as soon as the armed robbers started shooting they became a threat to society that needed to be stopped at all costs. This means law enforcement is going to use escalating force until they're stopped. Yes, this includes firing at the threat on a busy highway. It sucks to be caught in the crossfire, but let's keep perspective here. It's the robbers/kidnappers fault any of this happened.
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      12-07-2019, 09:44 AM   #18
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What were these people thinking going on a suicide mission? They really thought they'd get away? Not worth your life for some diamonds as well as the lives of innocent bystanders.
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      12-07-2019, 09:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Law enforcement is responding to an armed robbery that became a gunfight. The perpetrators then carjacked a truck an took a person hostage.

First, I can guarantee you the hostage and his loved ones wouldn't like your plan to "remove the threat" of law enforcement and let them get away. Sure you'll find the truck, but we're not trying to protect the citizens from the truck! It's the guys IN THE TRUCK we're chasing. Can you imagine being held hostage and the cops chasing your hostage takers stop their pursuit? I'd be furious.

Also, as soon as the armed robbers started shooting they became a threat to society that needed to be stopped at all costs. This means law enforcement is going to use escalating force until they're stopped. Yes, this includes firing at the threat on a busy highway. It sucks to be caught in the crossfire, but let's keep perspective here. It's the robbers/kidnappers fault any of this happened.
Unsurprising you have a very simple comment like this. There were many things that could’ve been done in the previous twenty miles before it became a shootout in a crowded intersection. “It sucks” to be caught in the crossfire? What an understatement, can you imagine if your wife and kids are in the back of that SUV that a group of cops are using as cover? Uh no that is beyond sucks and unfortunate. Cops are trained (and indirectly take an oath not to) use innocent civilians as human shields. That will most definitely lead to a lot of problems for a lot of the cops in that situation.

In the end an innocent civilian and the hostage are both dead. Obviously not a successful outcome. As has been said a long investigation will reveal what went wrong. The only good thing to come of this is that hopefully LE can learn from the mistakes made here. I guarantee you there are a ton of current cops across the country that are dumbfounded by what they just saw as well.
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      12-07-2019, 09:49 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Law enforcement is responding to an armed robbery that became a gunfight. The perpetrators then carjacked a truck an took a person hostage.

First, I can guarantee you the hostage and his loved ones wouldn't like your plan to "remove the threat" of law enforcement and let them get away. Sure you'll find the truck, but we're not trying to protect the citizens from the truck! It's the guys IN THE TRUCK we're chasing. Can you imagine being held hostage and the cops chasing your hostage takers stop their pursuit? I'd be furious.

Also, as soon as the armed robbers started shooting they became a threat to society that needed to be stopped at all costs. This means law enforcement is going to use escalating force until they're stopped. Yes, this includes firing at the threat on a busy highway. It sucks to be caught in the crossfire, but let's keep perspective here. It's the robbers/kidnappers fault any of this happened.
I am a 100% law and order guy.

There also needs to be judgement. This is why they have adjusted their policy regarding traffic pursuits. There was a decision made to end collateral casualties due to the pursuits. This merits a 2nd look at the policies from the pursuit to the execution of the strategies designed to end the pursuit.
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      12-07-2019, 09:50 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Law enforcement is responding to an armed robbery that became a gunfight. The perpetrators then carjacked a truck an took a person hostage.

First, I can guarantee you the hostage and his loved ones wouldn't like your plan to "remove the threat" of law enforcement and let them get away. Sure you'll find the truck, but we're not trying to protect the citizens from the truck! It's the guys IN THE TRUCK we're chasing. Can you imagine being held hostage and the cops chasing your hostage takers stop their pursuit? I'd be furious.

Also, as soon as the armed robbers started shooting they became a threat to society that needed to be stopped at all costs. This means law enforcement is going to use escalating force until they're stopped. Yes, this includes firing at the threat on a busy highway. It sucks to be caught in the crossfire, but let's keep perspective here. It's the robbers/kidnappers fault any of this happened.
Unsurprising you have a very simple comment like this. There were many things that could've been done in the previous twenty miles before it became a shootout in a crowded intersection. "It sucks" to be caught in the crossfire? What an understatement, can you imagine if your wife and kids are in the back of that SUV that a group of cops are using as cover? Uh no that is beyond sucks and unfortunate. Cops are trained (and indirectly take an oath not to) use innocent civilians as human shields. That will most definitely lead to a lot of problems for a lot of the cops in that situation.

In the end an innocent civilian and the hostage are both dead. Obviously not a successful outcome. As has been said a long investigation will reveal what went wrong. The only good thing to come of this is that hopefully LE can learn from the mistakes made here. I guarantee you there are a ton of current cops across the country that are dumbfounded by what they just saw as well.
What we saw was law enforcement stopping a threat from continuing a rampage. That's priority one.

We've already seen the stand down approach to law enforcement fail too many times in mass shooting situations alone. That's why law enforcement doesn't wait any longer. They stop the threat ASAP.
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      12-07-2019, 09:52 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
What we saw was law enforcement stopping a threat from continuing a rampage. That's priority one.
Prevention of the loss of life should always be priority one. Period. End of story.

This wasn't a mass shooting. The situations aren't congruent.
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