Camber plates or shim kit?

[johanness]

I'm about to install (for better or worse) a set of H&R springs in my MC. This is a temporary measure to take up the space above the wheels, as I will be upgrading to proper coilovers down the road once my stock shocks have worn a bit. (I'm only at 4.5K miles on the odo).

So my question is, if I want to dial more camber for a better stance for the street / few track days... which way do I go?
Shim kit or Camber plates like this -->http://www.apexraceparts.com/Vorshla...ches_p_73.html

Then... springs go on, one of the 2 options above, then a full alignment. Anything else or other ideas? (short of full coilovers)

[dorifto88]

i purchased shims, only because of the price point. if you are going coilovers later on eventually and the coilovers you want do not include camber plates already, then i suppose it would be logical to just get the camber plates now...

[a_riddler]

I went shims because I haven't made a decision on coilovers yet.

Shims will get you to -2.5 front camber and shims are a cheap, temp solution and quick to install until I pull the trigger.

In addition, you can mark the tops of the strut towers for max camber and "street" camber so you can get some adjustment. All in all, no downside.

[The HACK]

If you're only going to do a few track days, shims. Since you probably won't be messing with your camber that much, nor do you really need anything more than -2.5 degrees otherwise you'll be replacing your tires every 8,000 miles.

That, and if eventually you DO get camber plates, you can run the camber plates with the shims for maximum camber flexibility, or turn the camber plates around and use it for caster. In fact, I am contemplating this right now.

EDIT: On the other hand, if "stance" is what you care about, running shims limits your clearance to the strut. Meaning whatever wheels you use right now, the top inside of the wheel will come closer to the strut with shims than with camber plates. So if clearance is an issue already, camber plates first.

[johanness]

Originally Posted by The HACK

If you're only going to do a few track days, shims. Since you probably won't be messing with your camber that much, nor do you really need anything more than -2.5 degrees otherwise you'll be replacing your tires every 8,000 miles.

That, and if eventually you DO get camber plates, you can run the camber plates with the shims for maximum camber flexibility, or turn the camber plates around and use it for caster. In fact, I am contemplating this right now.

EDIT: On the other hand, if "stance" is what you care about, running shims limits your clearance to the strut. Meaning whatever wheels you use right now, the top inside of the wheel will come closer to the strut with shims than with camber plates. So if clearance is an issue already, camber plates first.

I'm looking into running my stock tires into the ground, then getting a set of wheels (9.5 fronts 10 rears) and tires at that point.
I've been told that I'll need camber up front to fit the wider (dished) rims. I could always go with 8.5's, but don't want a flat look. In the end, I just want a finger or a finger and a half above my tires all around.

I want this plan to work in conjunction with the H&R springs now, until such time down the road when I invest in a set of coilovers.

What would u do?

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by johanness

I'm looking into running my stock tires into the ground, then getting a set of wheels (9.5 fronts 10 rears) and tires at that point.
I've been told that I'll need camber up front to fit the wider (dished) rims. I could always go with 8.5's, but don't want a flat look. In the end, I just want a finger or a finger and a half above my tires all around.

I want this plan to work in conjunction with the H&R springs now, until such time down the road when I invest in a set of coilovers.

What would u do?

Me? I'd forget about running 9.5" rims in the front because it's useless. There's not enough room to run anything wider than a 255mm tire, and that would be a stretch. And the nominal width of 9.5" rims usually means 265-275mm wide tires. Even for the rear I'd maybe cap it at 9.5", because running anything larger than 275mm in the rear is going to require some judicious use of spacers, camber, and maybe even some fender rolling AND running sans wheel well liners.

I understand you're probably into looks on the street far more than actual performance, since to be completely honest? The MZ4 Coupe isn't really THAT heavy to require anything more than the typical 245f/275r combination, which would be ideal on 8.5"f/9.5"r wheels. Anything larger than that size, IMO, runs into having too much tire and having extra weight you don't necessarily need.

So if performance isn't what you're after, and look is far more important, and the car is likely going to sniff the hot side of the pit maybe likely NEVER? Run the shims, use spacers to push the wheel out away from the top of the strut. At 9.5" wide, you'll likely be able to fit 255mm tires (yes I understand it's called a "stretch" look, but to me it looks like sh*t. Personal opinion) with the max number of shims (3) to achieve about 3 degree camber up front without requiring fender roll, or just a minor roll. Be prepared to pay for new tires at least once a year, or flip them every time you change oil to extend the life of the tire(s).

Not much trick to the rear. Run the skinniest set of tires you can fit on the 10" rims without rubbing. That's likely 275mm (again, how the "stretched" look is popular, I never understand). Use spacers to position the rims/tires within the wheel well correctly.

[johanness]

Thx HACK. Never planned on running more than 245/275 at any time. The whole reason for a wider front rim is becuase I don't like the flat look of 8.5's (ARC8's, F14 etc). It's not solely about looks either because I prefer to keep the performance side a priority (If I was only about looks I would move to 19's and call it a day) I've already signed up for a few track days this year, and just wanted more meat. But I guess what i've learned here is that I can't have my cake and eat it too. Nuff said. I think I may choose a different style rim and move on

[johanness]

This is what I'm after. And I don't think I'll sacrifice too much performance going for this look.



(using APEX's pic, thank u. Great looking ride)

[kaiv]

How much camber do you need to run Apex Arc-8 9.5" up front? I'm seriously considering in buying a set right now (for Moupe).... 9.5F and 10R... running 255/35F and 275/35R

[johanness]

Originally Posted by kaiv

How much camber do you need to run Apex Arc-8 9.5" up front? I'm seriously considering in buying a set right now (for Moupe).... 9.5F and 10R... running 255/35F and 275/35R

This is the EXACT reason I started this thread because this is what I'm after too (except 245/275). It'd be nice if someone who knows would chime in.

[a_riddler]

I asked Eddy over at ApexRaceParts this same question, here is his reply:

"You would not need a spacer up front if you were to run a 245/40/18 on the 9.5" wheel. You will need about -2 degrees camber up front to make that fit, maybe less. Members that have mounted the 9.5" wheel up front were running r-compounds, and one of them was a 265. A 245 on a 9.5" wheel will be stretched in comparison, which will give you additional clearance. You'll need camber plates which we sell to make it fit correctly, but -1.5-2 should be enough to fit that.

I cannot guarantee the above, but as a general guideline it's accurate. We know from experience that you would only need a little more camber then that to guarantee fitment. Members running spacers up front were using them due to the wide tire, and BBK clearance.

We only recommend adding negative camber with camber plates, and not shimming the strut, as that significantly reduces wheel to strut tube clearance due to the geometry change.

So your two options are 18x9/18x10 no spacers needed, or 18x9.5/18x10 no spacers needed, but negative camber is a must."

So, I decided to go 18x9.5 square with 265's and spacers. I get alot of tire wear autocrossing, so I want to be able to easily rotate to extend the use. Run -2.4 camber with shims. I'll get camber plates eventually, so not worried about it if I have to to make them fit.

[johanness]

Thx for the input Riddler! Seems you have performance in mind AND are able to get what u want. Well done. I'm prolly going to go the same route.

[colatkitty]

Originally Posted by johanness

This is what I'm after. And I don't think I'll sacrifice too much performance going for this look.



(using APEX's pic, thank u. Great looking ride)

I'm glad that someone else other than myself likes this look.

BTW, you are not sacrificing any performance by using a 9.5" up front. In fact, it performs much better than a 8.5" wheel. I currently run 245/40/18 Toyo R888's up front on my 9.5" wheels and they are by no means "stretched".

I come from the S2000 world, and the fastest setup now is running 255/40/17 tires on 17x10" wheels all around. It's been proven, both in the miata and the S2K world, that wider wheels provide more grip (up to a limit) given the same tire size.

[dorifto88]

Originally Posted by colatkitty

I'm glad that someone else other than myself likes this look.

BTW, you are not sacrificing any performance by using a 9.5" up front. In fact, it performs much better than a 8.5" wheel. I currently run 245/40/17 Toyo R888's up front on my 9.5" wheels and they are by no means "stretched".

I come from the S2000 world, and the fastest setup now is running 255/40/17 tires on 17x10" wheels all around. It's been proven, both in the miata and the S2K world, that wider wheels provide more grip (up to a limit) given the same tire size.

hey colakitty could you please post pictures of your car with 17" wheels? ive always been curious about how it would look and how low the car would sit.

thanks

[colatkitty]

Originally Posted by dorifto88

hey colakitty could you please post pictures of your car with 17" wheels? ive always been curious about how it would look and how low the car would sit.

thanks

Sorry for the typo. I meant to say 245/40/18 on my 18x9.5 wheels on my Mcoupe.

I have 255/40/17 on 17x10 wheels on my S2000.

[dorifto88]

Originally Posted by colatkitty

Sorry for the typo. I meant to say 245/40/18 on my 18x9.5 wheels on my Mcoupe.

I have 255/40/17 on 17x10 wheels on my S2000.

ahhhhhh, thanks for the heads up

[Carter]

Have you put the hr springs on yet. If so
How are they?

[johanness]

^^^ Not yet. Too busy @ work. Will try to get them on next week. Will report back once they're on and have been given a good run.

Originally Posted by colatkitty

I'm glad that someone else other than myself likes this look.

BTW, you are not sacrificing any performance by using a 9.5" up front. In fact, it performs much better than a 8.5" wheel. I currently run 245/40/18 Toyo R888's up front on my 9.5" wheels and they are by no means "stretched".

I come from the S2000 world, and the fastest setup now is running 255/40/17 tires on 17x10" wheels all around. It's been proven, both in the miata and the S2K world, that wider wheels provide more grip (up to a limit) given the same tire size.

Sounds right to me Cola. And the argument about extra weight from the 8.5's to 9.5's doesn't hold water either. I can make that up having a light breakfast, and the transference of that nominal amount of weight isn't going to send me into the crash-pads either.

The wheels/stance/utility of the car in that pic are in my mind perfect.

[cgroppi]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Me? I'd forget about running 9.5" rims in the front because it's useless. There's not enough room to run anything wider than a 255mm tire, and that would be a stretch. And the nominal width of 9.5" rims usually means 265-275mm wide tires. Even for the rear I'd maybe cap it at 9.5", because running anything larger than 275mm in the rear is going to require some judicious use of spacers, camber, and maybe even some fender rolling AND running sans wheel well liners.

I understand you're probably into looks on the street far more than actual performance, since to be completely honest? The MZ4 Coupe isn't really THAT heavy to require anything more than the typical 245f/275r combination, which would be ideal on 8.5"f/9.5"r wheels. Anything larger than that size, IMO, runs into having too much tire and having extra weight you don't necessarily need.

So if performance isn't what you're after, and look is far more important, and the car is likely going to sniff the hot side of the pit maybe likely NEVER? Run the shims, use spacers to push the wheel out away from the top of the strut. At 9.5" wide, you'll likely be able to fit 255mm tires (yes I understand it's called a "stretch" look, but to me it looks like sh*t. Personal opinion) with the max number of shims (3) to achieve about 3 degree camber up front without requiring fender roll, or just a minor roll. Be prepared to pay for new tires at least once a year, or flip them every time you change oil to extend the life of the tire(s).

Not much trick to the rear. Run the skinniest set of tires you can fit on the 10" rims without rubbing. That's likely 275mm (again, how the "stretched" look is popular, I never understand). Use spacers to position the rims/tires within the wheel well correctly.

I run 285/30 Hoosier A6s in front on my M Coupe for stock class autocross. They fit just fine, with no rubbing. They're on stock wheels, with Koni DA struts and stock springs in front. Not that I would recommend this for the street, mind you, but there's plenty of room up there for a big tire.

I had to run a 5mm spacer in the rear to fit the 285s in the back.

[onelove]

Originally Posted by cgroppi

I run 285/30 Hoosier A6s in front on my M Coupe for stock class autocross. They fit just fine, with no rubbing. They're on stock wheels, with Koni DA struts and stock springs in front. Not that I would recommend this for the street, mind you, but there's plenty of room up there for a big tire.

I had to run a 5mm spacer in the rear to fit the 285s in the back.

Care to show a pic ? How much camber are you running ? I'd have to take a look at the sectional width of that specific tire but I know my current 9" wheels and 245 NT01s take up about all the room I can on the front with 2 degrees of camber. Can't imagine how I'd fit a 285 as I already need a 10mm spacer to clear my TCK Coilovers on the inside, but if it's possible love to see it (have a great source for 285 Hoosier take offs that I've always considered to be rear only).

[johanness]

Originally Posted by Carter

Have you put the hr springs on yet. If so
How are they?

Review here: http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=503482

Love em.

Also wondering about the above.

[cgroppi]

Originally Posted by onelove

Care to show a pic ? How much camber are you running ? I'd have to take a look at the sectional width of that specific tire but I know my current 9" wheels and 245 NT01s take up about all the room I can on the front with 2 degrees of camber. Can't imagine how I'd fit a 285 as I already need a 10mm spacer to clear my TCK Coilovers on the inside, but if it's possible love to see it (have a great source for 285 Hoosier take offs that I've always considered to be rear only).

I have about -1.5 degree camber (max with the alignment pins pulled out of the strut tops). In stock class, camber shims or camber plates are illegal.

Here's a photo from a recent autocross. They fit. The tires are 285-30 A6s in front and back on stock wheels. Rears have a 5mm spacer.

http://AZsolo.zenfolio.com/p379253514/e3ce0c1da

I don't have any close-up pics of the front tires, definitely not inside the wheel well. There is very little clearance between the tire and the strut body (a few mm). With camber shims, you'd probably need to add a front spacer.

Many coilovers give you way less space to fit a big tire, since you have to clear the spring, not just the strut body as with the stock setup. If I was running in street prepared class with coilovers, I would want to have 285s on 18x10 wheels up front. This would likely require application of either a fender roller or a cutting wheel to the wheel arch. Not interested in doing that while I still owe money on the car.

If I remember, I will take a couple of pictures inside the wheel well when I'm changing my tires at tomorrow's event.