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      09-19-2019, 02:48 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Captain Blood View Post
I vaguely remember being a child in SOCAL (69-72) and wheezing and being severely asthmatic because of the severe smog in the LA area. Then we moved back to Texas, and things got a lot better. I understand why they want stricter emission standards and support it.

I don't believe SF has the same problem, do they? Isn't the smog issue a combination of emissions + socals unique geography and weather patterns?
From my understanding/reading it definitely makes it worse. A lot of the valleys around there have the same issue as it gets trapped in there. From what I've read it is becoming a big problem all through the San Joaquin valley and even creeping into San Diego.

https://www.epa.gov/sanjoaquinvalley...es-cleaner-air
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      09-19-2019, 03:17 PM   #90
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You do know that for decades BMW's sold in California had some differences with regards to emissions equipment vs same models sold elsewhere in the US? r.
And that's why vehicle cost was higher bc they had 2 different systems.
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      09-19-2019, 03:32 PM   #91
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You do know that for decades BMW's sold in California had some differences with regards to emissions equipment vs same models sold elsewhere in the US? r.
And that's why vehicle cost was higher bc they had 2 different systems.
For who? Buyers outside of California? Not necessarily. Supply/Demand of the local market have a larger impact on price disparities.
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      09-19-2019, 08:17 PM   #92
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For who? Buyers outside of California? Not necessarily. Supply/Demand of the local market have a larger impact on price disparities.
I mean seriously common sense. Making two different vehicles for x number of states. Not rocket science.

Like I said..I am a tree hugger but allowing different states set their own limits.. Yea thank OBama for Doing an essentially Executive action 5 days in office..Trump is just undoing stupidity.and to say he can't is..........
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      09-19-2019, 08:21 PM   #93
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Dumb question, does this really matter much with the big wave of electric coming (supposedly)?
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      09-19-2019, 09:00 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post

Edit: Doing some quick research it appears that the smog/ozone levels have been increasing in So Cal at least the last two years and violated health standards more than a 130 times each of those last two years. I'd say that is more than a non existent problem.
The fires around California in the past 2 years have effected our air quality greatly. Most likely the uptick in smog/ozone levels is due to that, not vehicles.
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      09-19-2019, 09:14 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
This thread only remind me how hypocritical most are supporting California's stricter pollution standards while in other sections posting about their tunes (piggyback often so they can be disabled easy?) or talk about their other aftermarket additions that will not pass the current California laws.
Well, I don't live in California. So my tune would irrelevant to the discussion. Hell, we don't even do visual inspections in my state. I could go cat-less and almost certainly never get caught. I won't, but I easily could.

Further, does using a JB4 or a Dinan tune demonstrably create more emissions? Many times aftermarket tunes actually increase mileage.
...at a cost to the environment.

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Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post

I don't live in California. As such, I could not care less what CA does with respect to emissions on vehicles.
You should it affects your wallet. They it's going bye bye
You do know that for decades BMW's sold in California had some differences with regards to emissions equipment vs same models sold elsewhere in the US?

Exhibit A: BMW N51 vs N52.


In any case the waiver is codified in the Clean Air Act and there's no mechanism to withdraw a waiver.
You are assuming. Just because there is nothing in the law about rescinding a waiver, there is nothing to state it cannot be rescinded either.

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Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
I feel bad for people in CA, but many of the emissions regulations we have today are a result of CAFE standards pushing manufacturers to innovate. I'm reminded of this every time an older car (even from the 1990s) drives by and I can smell it for the next few miles.

The diesel emissions regulations are a nightmare though. Manufacturers are literally throwing shit at the wall hoping it works to pass the requirements and we end up with trucks that cost $90,000 and require $15,000 exhaust system replacements every few years. Many of these systems end up destroying the engine soon after warranty just because of their faulty design. Instead of California having super strict standards and other states having less, there should be more uniform standards across the country. It makes no sense that in one state you need to be able to breathe from the tailpipe and in a neighboring one you can blow black smoke for 50 miles making all the cars behind you disappear.
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I agree. Plus, I still stand by my original statements in that California has every right to do whatever they want to do. Folks who disagree can either vote with their pencils during elections or they can vote with their wallets and move.

I don't live in California. As such, I could not care less what CA does with respect to emissions on vehicles.
I'm generally for states rights over federal laws, but sometimes it does makes sense for a blanket federal statute.

But, here California is not the same as Wyoming, MN or Tennessee etc for that matter and have different needs due to their population and geography. I still go back to Cali every other year to visit family and I'm amazed at how the smog is creeping into areas and staying longer than I ever remember. Even with these stringent rules the pollution is still bad and increasing.

But, even those in Tennessee should care about the air quality standards if you care about the Smokies etc. All of that crap travels across the country and affects everyone/everywhere. I've actually read a decent amount about the affects on the Smokies and areas such as that from surrounding industry/auto pollution etc and it is sad.

Yes, I'm a hypocrite as I love performance vehicles but I'm certainly not fighting the inevitable because of the way a V8 sounds etc.
That's funny because the smog and Sig Alerts Which were literally daily decades ago where literally everyday visibility was far less than a mile, has been so much better (actually almost non-existent) compared to then.
Just read section 209.

BTW it would take an act of Congress to revoke the waiver.

DOJ is going to lose this. I suspect the Administration knows this but they hope a federal court will issue an temporary injunction against the agreement between the State of California and automakers until it has been adjudicated which could be years.
You can read section 209 all you want. Again, just because it does not state that a waiver cannot be revoked, that doesn't mean that a waiver cannot be revoked.

There is nothing to state it can or cannot be revoked.
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      09-19-2019, 09:15 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post

Edit: Doing some quick research it appears that the smog/ozone levels have been increasing in So Cal at least the last two years and violated health standards more than a 130 times each of those last two years. I'd say that is more than a non existent problem.
The fires around California in the past 2 years have effected our air quality greatly. Most likely the uptick in smog/ozone levels is due to that, not vehicles.
We have a winner.
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      09-19-2019, 09:25 PM   #97
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Quote:
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Granted this is anecdotal and it would be nice to have some real data on the issue. But, I remember as a kid growing up in Carmichael in the 80s I could occasionally see snow capped mountains from our neighborhood. Friends and family that still live there say that doesn't anymore. Which, makes sense because the whole area has grown a ton since then. We then moved to Camarillo in the late 80s and I don't remember it being smoggy their then. I just spent some time there last summer and was surprised that was pretty smoggy there. UncleWede can speak to this more than I can I'm sure. Any way, yes cars are much cleaner and more efficient since the 80s etc, but just due to natural growth there are many more on the road also. Hence the constant fight to be ever cleaner emission wise.

Edit: Doing some quick research it appears that the smog/ozone levels have been increasing in So Cal at least the last two years and violated health standards more than a 130 times each of those last two years. I'd say that is more than a non existent problem.
Maybe I don't get out enough, but smog and Ventura County have not been related, in my humble opinion. When I go up to the cabin in Lake Isabella, then drive home, I don't notice any air quality issues. It doesn't smell like pine/cedar, but I don't detect smog either. There ARE a shit-ton more cars on the road, and I'm literally less than 1/4 mile from the 101 that ties up in both directions starting around 3pm. Maybe Camarillo just doesn't benefit from that ocean breeze

Again, I think this will keep X. Becerra busy for several weeks/months, so he won't be freed up to launch his own barrage of BS suits against the Trump Admin.
Let's not let the facts get in the way of your "perception"

Click on pics to expand.

And of course we are well aware of the massive wild fires in the last few years that spiked those numbers, specifically in the most northern areas.
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      09-19-2019, 09:38 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
...at a cost to the environment.


You are assuming. Just because there is nothing in the law about rescinding a waiver, there is nothing to state it cannot be rescinded either.


That's funny because the smog and Sig Alerts Which were literally daily decades ago where literally everyday visibility was far less than a mile, has been so much better (actually almost non-existent) compared to then.
Granted this is anecdotal and it would be nice to have some real data on the issue. But, I remember as a kid growing up in Carmichael in the 80s I could occasionally see snow capped mountains from our neighborhood. Friends and family that still live there say that doesn't anymore. Which, makes sense because the whole area has grown a ton since then. We then moved to Camarillo in the late 80s and I don't remember it being smoggy their then. I just spent some time there last summer and was surprised that was pretty smoggy there. UncleWede can speak to this more than I can I'm sure. Any way, yes cars are much cleaner and more efficient since the 80s etc, but just due to natural growth there are many more on the road also. Hence the constant fight to be ever cleaner emission wise.

Edit: Doing some quick research it appears that the smog/ozone levels have been increasing in So Cal at least the last two years and violated health standards more than a 130 times each of those last two years. I'd say that is more than a non existent problem.
You want real info...you got it

As can be seen above....and in this graph from 2000+ below.

Steady decline from 2000 until the wildfires of the past several years.
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      09-19-2019, 09:44 PM   #99
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You want real info...you got it

As can be seen above....and in this graph from 2000+ below.

Steady decline from 2000 until the wildfires of the past several years.
Yup, you got me, there are still many areas with nearly a 1/3 of the year with terrible air quality. We should roll everything back.

Sarcasm aside this is more a testament to let California keep doing what they are doing than change anything. They are going the correct way with way more cars on the road, why would anyone want to change that?

And yes the fires I'm sure affected air quality, but many of the articles I've read did not even bring that up. I wonder why? I'll have to do some more research on that.
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      09-19-2019, 09:48 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
For who? Buyers outside of California? Not necessarily. Supply/Demand of the local market have a larger impact on price disparities.
I mean seriously common sense. Making two different vehicles for x number of states. Not rocket science.

Like I said..I am a tree hugger but allowing different states set their own limits.. Yea thank OBama for Doing an essentially Executive action 5 days in office..Trump is just undoing stupidity.and to say he can't is..........
Of course making 2 vehicles costs more.

That's why BMW and others complied with EU4, EU5 and EU6 Standards.

Of course there were no different emission parts for the most part for California or the USA in those periods so clearly the EUx Standards were tighter than California in terms of emissions.

That is the reason that brands will not change as a result of this dust up.

It has nothing to do with actual implementation of emission standards, it's all about who has the authority to set those goals (which may be immaterial as EU standards are tighter).
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      09-19-2019, 09:48 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
You want real info...you got it

As can be seen above....and in this graph from 2000+ below.

Steady decline from 2000 until the wildfires of the past several years.
Yup, you got me, there are still many areas with nearly a 1/3 of the year with terrible air quality. We should roll everything back.
Err, you know damn well these are future tighter regulations not implemented yet. No one is doing what you suggest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post

And yes the fires I'm sure affected air quality, but many of the articles I've read did not even bring that up. I wonder why? I'll have to do some more research on that.
You already know the answer to that.
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      09-19-2019, 09:55 PM   #102
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Err, you know damn well these are future tighter regulations not implemented yet. No one is doing what you suggest.


You already know the answer to that.
Answer to what?

There have been bad fires for more than just the last two years so yes I'm going to try and read up on if that is the sole reason for the uptick the last two years. Regardless there are places previous to the two years that are still dealing with really bad air quality. You said there are rarely smog alerts etc. I wouldn't call around 100 days out of a year for a lot of different places in CA a rarity.

Edit: No one is? Trump has tried or is instructing the EPA to roll back many air quality standards allowing more pollution to be emitted.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rollbacks.html
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      09-19-2019, 10:05 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Err, you know damn well these are future tighter regulations not implemented yet. No one is doing what you suggest.


You already know the answer to that.
Answer to what?

There have been bad fires for more than just the last two years so yes I'm going to try and read up on if that is the sole reason for the uptick the last two years. Regardless there are places previous to the two years that are still dealing with really bad air quality. You said there are rarely smog alerts etc. I wouldn't call around 100 days out of a year for a lot of different places in CA a rarity.

Edit: No one is? Trump has tried or is instructing the EPA to roll back many air quality standards allowing more pollution to be emitted.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rollbacks.html
The reason you don't read wildfires is why let the facts get in the way.

If you do not remember entire towns in California being wiped out over the last few years and the largest fires in history, google is you friend.

And of course let's not forget the fires that went from Santa Barbara to Malibu.

Again, EU will set the specs, not Trump, not California.

And for 3rd time, Trump is talking about levels that have not been put on the road yet. It's not a rollback of even the 2020 standards or those levels. It's future levels which many believe might be unattainable. But EU will be the final determination of what automakers do.
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      09-19-2019, 10:11 PM   #104
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The reason you don't read wildfires is why let the facts get in the way.

If you do not remember entire towns in California being wiped out over the last few years and the largest fires in history, google is you friend.

And of course let's not forget the fires that went from Santa Barbara to Malibu.

Again, EU will set the specs, not Trump, not California.
Of course I remember them, but as I said and you continue to ignore that there have been major fires in CA as you should know more than just the last two years.

If that is the facts than so be it, but I’m not taking it at face value. Everything isn’t always a media conspiracy etc.

If you truly believe the last line than why did you even start the thread or care about this subject at all?
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      09-19-2019, 10:14 PM   #105
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The reason you don't read wildfires is why let the facts get in the way.

If you do not remember entire towns in California being wiped out over the last few years and the largest fires in history, google is you friend.

And of course let's not forget the fires that went from Santa Barbara to Malibu.

Again, EU will set the specs, not Trump, not California.
Of course I remember them, but as I said and you continue to ignore that there have been major fires in CA as you should know more than just the last two years.

If that is the facts than so be it, but I'm not taking it at face value. Everything isn't always a media conspiracy etc.

If you truly believe the last line than why did you even start the thread or care about this subject at all?
No, I stated that none have covered the areas in sq miles and totally wiping out towns. You are just ignoring.
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      09-19-2019, 10:26 PM   #106
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No, I stated that none have covered the areas in sq miles and totally wiping out towns. You are just ignoring.
Uh no, I havenít ignored any of it. Your last line/point in your previous post just made your whole thread/argument irrelevant. If the EU is going to set the standard which is most likely to be more stringent than even CAs and you believe this then what the hell are you/we arguing about?

Speaking of ignoring, yes Trump is trying to roll back just about every environmental law there is on the books for big businesses. Sounds awful swampy to me giving in to lobbyists, but hey you already knew this though to.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pol...n-zinke-226106



Have a good night.
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      09-20-2019, 12:38 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
No, I stated that none have covered the areas in sq miles and totally wiping out towns. You are just ignoring.
Uh no, I haven’t ignored any of it. Your last line/point in your previous post just made your whole thread/argument irrelevant. If the EU is going to set the standard which is most likely to be more stringent than even CAs and you believe this then what the hell are you/we arguing about?

Speaking of ignoring, yes Trump is trying to roll back just about every environmental law there is on the books for big businesses. Sounds awful swampy to me giving in to lobbyists, but hey you already knew this though to.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pol...n-zinke-226106



Have a good night.
The topic?

1) I've always stated that Car Makers can chose to go with tighter regulation, be it from EU or wherever. Trump cannot make auto makers adhere to less stringent regulations.

2) Federal laws and waivers. In this case, Federal law prevails....but as stated it's a mute point as automakers will go with EU Standards which are tighter.

3) You keep confusing yourself. NO CARS ARE BEING SOLD TODAY THAT MEET THE 2022-2025 STANDARDS.

Every one of you links do NOT even begin to claim that Trump is rolling back the EPA car Emission standards less than what is already in place on vehicles being sold now....so quit implying it. You are ignoring facts again. And trying to blur with non CARB items now.
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      09-20-2019, 01:42 AM   #108
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I'm just waiting for catless DP's to pass smog..that would save me the swap job in a couple years.
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      09-20-2019, 02:29 AM   #109
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I'm just waiting for catless DP's to pass smog..that would save me the swap job in a couple years.
Lots of luck with that happening.
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      09-20-2019, 06:15 AM   #110
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The topic?

1) I've always stated that Car Makers can chose to go with tighter regulation, be it from EU or wherever. Trump cannot make auto makers adhere to less stringent regulations.

2) Federal laws and waivers. In this case, Federal law prevails....but as stated it's a mute point as automakers will go with EU Standards which are tighter.

3) You keep confusing yourself. NO CARS ARE BEING SOLD TODAY THAT MEET THE 2022-2025 STANDARDS.

Every one of you links do NOT even begin to claim that Trump is rolling back the EPA car Emission standards less than what is already in place on vehicles being sold now....so quit implying it. You are ignoring facts again. And trying to blur with non CARB items now.
Enjoy just talking to yourself? The last line is utter bullshit as it is 100% clear he is attempting to roll back nearly every EPA pollution/emission standard there is past, present to future. Iím not the one confused here. I donít even know why you started the thread or what you are arguing anymore. You said it three times now that Trump or California doesnít control what is going to happen the EU will so end thread.
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