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      03-31-2020, 03:28 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
... Here's the difference, which I bolded - that's a message to us, from God. That's directed at us. Not God. So therefore, no, God should not respect all religions and those who are "spiritual". He makes it quite clear he doesn't.
Yahweh is a war god.
Jesus said different, but his church hasn't acted differently.
Islam is war based, also.

I'll worship at another "tree".

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      03-31-2020, 03:31 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Murf993 View Post
So just to play devils advocate (couldn't help myself), Turn the other cheek was mentioned earlier.

[38] Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

Wouldn't this also inform the view that we should and god should respect all religions and those who are spiritual regardless of how they worship or even if they don't believe.
No. I couldn't help myself. Browsing on the throne.

Here's the difference, which I bolded - that's a message to us, from God. That's directed at us. Not God. So therefore, no, God should not respect all religions and those who are "spiritual". He makes it quite clear he doesn't.

But an interesting attempt. Enjoyable.

BTW, for anyone genuinely curious - I really liked C.S. Lewis' book - Mere Christianity. I thought it put forth certain logical arguments and I appreciated it for that. I recommend reading it! It isn't that big of a book.

rebekahb - have you read it? Try to do so!
I haven't but always looking for a new read.
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      03-31-2020, 05:02 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by rebekahb View Post
Fast forward to meeting my husband, he was raised Catholic but was so bored by mass we never went unless it was one of those mandated holiday church days. I believed like I think Minn may have said earlier that if you live a good life, were a good person, tried to help people, etc that you should go to heaven. I've seen so many people "go to church" & then do horrible things after. It didn't make sense to me. We went through some really tough shit for a few years where I was so angry at god and just didn't understand why he allowed bad things to happen. I didn't expect the church to fix anything. When I actually started going I cried every time I went. I started working on myself because I truly believe you have to figure out some things for yourself, come to acceptance, and work out the kinks. No one just fixes you automatically. Our pastor is so real and down to earth. He says we're all jacked up and his messages are biblical but he brings it around to how it can help us in everyday life to work through things that challenge us in a better way. It's all hard to put out over text. I can't quote scriptures or explain a lot of it (just never dove that deep) but what I can tell you is when I'm having a hard day reading certain verses bring me peace. I hope this makes some sense where someone who is just trying to make it day by day & their thoughts come from.
Religion works for a lot of people as a relatively inexpensive (though I guess depends on your choice of church) therapy. And a lot of people can use that in their lives.

The really difficult question is the sign in front of the total on the balance sheet: does religion help more people as a therapy than it hurts by its stances against science, personal freedoms, and alternative worldviews?
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      03-31-2020, 08:52 PM   #158
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One of the main pillars of Christianity is the Ten Commandments. What most people don't realize is the first statement concerning these Commandments is a statement of ownership. "I am the Lord thy God..." Not I wish to be, or I wanna be, but I am. He created us and we are His to do with as He wishes. Sorta like a twelve year old kid and an ant farm. The kid built their world and if he decides to nurture them and watch them flourish, so be it. If he decides to flood the farm, so be it. It's his ant farm.
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      03-31-2020, 09:07 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by jimbobiggens View Post
One of the main pillars of Christianity is the Ten Commandments. What most people don't realize is the first statement concerning these Commandments is a statement of ownership. "I am the Lord thy God..." Not I wish to be, or I wanna be, but I am. He created us and we are His to do with as He wishes. Sorta like a twelve year old kid and an ant farm. The kid built their world and if he decides to nurture them and watch them flourish, so be it. If he decides to flood the farm, so be it. It's his ant farm.
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      03-31-2020, 09:13 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebekahb View Post
Fast forward to meeting my husband, he was raised Catholic but was so bored by mass we never went unless it was one of those mandated holiday church days. I believed like I think Minn may have said earlier that if you live a good life, were a good person, tried to help people, etc that you should go to heaven. I've seen so many people "go to church" & then do horrible things after. It didn't make sense to me. We went through some really tough shit for a few years where I was so angry at god and just didn't understand why he allowed bad things to happen. I didn't expect the church to fix anything. When I actually started going I cried every time I went. I started working on myself because I truly believe you have to figure out some things for yourself, come to acceptance, and work out the kinks. No one just fixes you automatically. Our pastor is so real and down to earth. He says we're all jacked up and his messages are biblical but he brings it around to how it can help us in everyday life to work through things that challenge us in a better way. It's all hard to put out over text. I can't quote scriptures or explain a lot of it (just never dove that deep) but what I can tell you is when I'm having a hard day reading certain verses bring me peace. I hope this makes some sense where someone who is just trying to make it day by day & their thoughts come from.
Religion works for a lot of people as a relatively inexpensive (though I guess depends on your choice of church) therapy. And a lot of people can use that in their lives.

The really difficult question is the sign in front of the total on the balance sheet: does religion help more people as a therapy than it hurts by its stances against science, personal freedoms, and alternative worldviews?
It's only stance against science when people are ignorant enough to let it stand against science. Are all agnostics and atheists necessarily more intelligent than those who are religious? I would think not. Who says religion stands against science, in general?
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      03-31-2020, 09:28 PM   #161
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      03-31-2020, 10:32 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Captain Blood View Post
It's only stance against science when people are ignorant enough to let it stand against science. Are all agnostics and atheists necessarily more intelligent than those who are religious? I would think not. Who says religion stands against science, in general?
How old is the Universe?
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      03-31-2020, 10:53 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Blood View Post
It's only stance against science when people are ignorant enough to let it stand against science. Are all agnostics and atheists necessarily more intelligent than those who are religious? I would think not. Who says religion stands against science, in general?
How old is the Universe?
Nobody really knows. There are educated guesses. Do you monitor the cold hydrogen frequencies?
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      03-31-2020, 11:09 PM   #164
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Nobody really knows. There are educated guesses. Do you monitor the cold hydrogen frequencies?
Well, that's the thing. I don't need to. There's a trust chain built into the modern science. With that, all I need to learn is how to determine trustworthy sources. Then I look at what they say or who they trust themselves, and then if necessary I look at what those others say or trust, etc. until I get to the answer. It's not perfect but over the 300+ years of existence of the formal scientific method (counting from the publication of Newton's Principia - notwithstanding the contributions of Aristotle or Descartes or others, if we have to choose the starting point of a proper hard core scientific method, this one is better than others) no one has been able to come up with anything better.

Within that framework, the answer to the question is 13.8B years, give or take 20M. That's pretty far from "nobody really knows".

But I was more interested to hear you say what it is according to the Christian teachings. Care to answer that?
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      04-01-2020, 02:06 AM   #165
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^ I just want a reasonable explanation of Noah's Ark. A flood that encompassed the entire world and this dude managed to get every animal species male and female on a ship to sail around in.

Its in the Quran as well. And even when i was reading it at 10 years old or something I was like ummm ok this seems extremely far fetched.
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      04-01-2020, 10:47 AM   #166
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^ I just want a reasonable explanation of Noah's Ark. A flood that encompassed the entire world and this dude managed to get every animal species male and female on a ship to sail around in.

Its in the Quran as well. And even when i was reading it at 10 years old or something I was like ummm ok this seems extremely far fetched.
I always wanted these guys to try it again. Don't forget feeding them for that entire time (not to each other or the people on the ship) and then dropping them all back off where they came from.

https://arkencounter.com/tickets/

Kidding aside, when this same conversation has come up with my religious friends/family, most of them say not to take some stories in the bible literally etc. And then others say no they are literal stories that happened. Part of the confusion for me anyway.
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      04-01-2020, 11:46 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post

Within that framework, the answer to the question is 13.8B years, give or take 20M. That's pretty far from "nobody really knows".

But I was more interested to hear you say what it is according to the Christian teachings. Care to answer that?
I'll take a stab at it, if you don't mind. The typical understanding is 10,000 years old. yeah, nope. These people are not paying attention.

The first two verses of the Bible give us a huge clue about the age of this earth. "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth". The Hebrew meaning of the word "created" basically means brand new. The idea is of a car on the showroom, perfect, complete, fresh. The very next verse says the earth was "without form and void". Here they used the Hebrew word for "used up, ready to be recycled". The idea is a car in a junkyard, used up, it's purpose is spent, ready to be melted and used again.

Something obviously happened between those two verses, how many years did that take? 100 million? More? Who knows?
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      04-01-2020, 01:14 PM   #168
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I'll take a stab at it, if you don't mind. The typical understanding is 10,000 years old. yeah, nope. These people are not paying attention.

The first two verses of the Bible give us a huge clue about the age of this earth. "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth". The Hebrew meaning of the word "created" basically means brand new. The idea is of a car on the showroom, perfect, complete, fresh. The very next verse says the earth was "without form and void". Here they used the Hebrew word for "used up, ready to be recycled". The idea is a car in a junkyard, used up, it's purpose is spent, ready to be melted and used again.

Something obviously happened between those two verses, how many years did that take? 100 million? More? Who knows?
If you read a very old translation of the Old Testament, their are two creation stories in the first book. This is because the tribes couldn't agree on which one was right!
Oh well. I guess that's religion for you....

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Last edited by Littlebear; 04-01-2020 at 02:28 PM..
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      04-01-2020, 02:41 PM   #169
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2 DNA samples of every animal on earht would just about fit on the size of the ark, as described.

The Earth, and humans, are more than 5000 years old. I still can't figure out where that one came from.

Tougher for me is when physics actually changed during the flood. Suddenly, water split the light and we had a rainbow?
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      04-01-2020, 02:53 PM   #170
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Noah was lucky there were only 2 genders back then.
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      04-01-2020, 03:03 PM   #171
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Noah was lucky there were only 2 genders back then.
You're confusing genders with sexes.
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      04-01-2020, 03:23 PM   #172
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Its in the Quran as well. And even when i was reading it at 10 years old or something I was like ummm ok this seems extremely far fetched.
Just the ark? The virgin birth, Jonah and the real big fish, pretty much all of Genesis.... I'm just glad we aren't supposed to take it literally If we aren't supposed to take it literally, then wouldn't it just be a work of fiction?

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https://arkencounter.com/tickets/

Kidding aside, when this same conversation has come up with my religious friends/family, most of them say not to take some stories in the bible literally etc. And then others say no they are literal stories that happened. Part of the confusion for me anyway.
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      04-01-2020, 03:58 PM   #173
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Jesus christ, people are so stupid
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      04-01-2020, 05:29 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlebear View Post
If you read a very old translation of the Old Testament, their are two creation stories in the first book. This is because the tribes couldn't agree on which one was right!
Oh well. I guess that's religion for you....

Murf
I never heard of that - can you elaborate, which translation?
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      04-01-2020, 10:07 PM   #175
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You will know one day, if you can't realize when you have a choice as of today. But we do live really close to the the end. This could all be a wake up call for the Christianity to realize the we are close and God is coming soon. Because most of the Christian's are to comfortable today, and many slipped away. Hopefully people will realize this, because our society became so bad and sinful, it's really sad. But all I know I am happy and I am waiting for God's coming, so I can be with him.
I am very confident that we do have a choice today - a choice to behave responsibly and all do our part in order for society to come through this while blunting viral transmission enough to allow our acute care resources to be able to handle the waves of critically ill. To buy time for industry to fill the supply gaps. For people to see a pandemic unfold just as predicted and realize no man/woman is an island if they do not realize this already. Seriously, philosophically and theologically you are already with God everyday so donít choose to wait for God - lead by example and quit waiting for God to come and instead do something to help humanity that you know God would approve of... that is what a true believer would do would they not? I of course can not fathom which of the many multitudes of available Gods to whom I should offer my humble feeble narcissistic supply to.... I instead will choose to continue to practice pragmatic optimism for my fellows in humanity. Now the singularity on the other hand....
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      04-01-2020, 11:10 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf993 View Post
So just to play devils advocate (couldn't help myself), Turn the other cheek was mentioned earlier.

[38] Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

Wouldn't this also inform the view that we should and god should respect all religions and those who are spiritual regardless of how they worship or even if they don't believe.
This really speaks to de-escalation of conflict and transitions to having a pacific and charitable heart.

Prior to the, 'Eye-for-an Eye..." edict, if you insulted me or hurt me, my village would come and kill everyone in your village, or vice-versa to avenge the wrong that was done to me/you. The Eye/Tooth edict was a plea for mercy to NOT hurt anyone beyond the hurt that was done to the aggrieved party. The addition, turn the other cheek and offer him your cloak speak of having a very pacific view towards your assailant and not fighting back and finally, "give him your cloak," speaks of offering charity to all...even though they may have harmed you and yours.

De-escallation of violence to Peaceful to Charitable. All making the case for more civilized and kind behavior towards one another.

And I think that regardless of religion, if everyone simply remembers, "The spirit of GOD lives in all men so that they may know right from wrong.,"Love thy neighbor as thyself", 90 percent of the world's problems would immediately fall away.
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