Advice on a repair before buying a Z4M Coupe

[PK1]

I have been looking at M Coupes for a little while now, and one of the options that would potentially suit my need in terms of options and relatively low mileage (30K or so) has a problem that the seller has been transparent with.

It's a single-owner car that hasn't been driven much in recent years, and the seller is telling me that the dealer has diagnosed it with a head gasket failure (supported by a compression test, not sure whether it was a leak down test or compression test). Apparently there isn't any oil/coolant cross contamination, so I'm assuming the gasket failure is between the cylinders.

The car has otherwise been maintained by the dealer, and the seller claims he has all the maintenance records, including regular fluid changes, etc. It hasn't received the maintenance II as of yet.

My inclination has been to walk, but the seller seems very forthcoming and transparent so I am giving it a second chance. He has even offered to have the dealer fix the head gasket and then sell it to me, which of course is the most prudent choice if I decide to accept this offer. However, I have been reading that this work on S54s needs special tools and expertise and not all dealers are equipped or experienced to do the job right. I've also read about some cases where the dealer did the work, following which issues occurred that required the dealer to then redo cam timing, Vanos adjustments, etc.

Given that this car is out of state, if I go this route, then I'd run the chance of not having access to the dealer that did the work to fix any remaining issues under the repair warranty.

The other options is - other than moving on and looking for a different car of course - to negotiate a lower price and do the job at a local dealer or specialized Indy myself after I buy the car. But that has other risks associated with it.

I thought I'd put this out here and see what advice or opinions you all may have.

[mziggy16]

Depends on your risk tolerance. I'd walk. There's always another car, just a matter of patience.

If you pursue it then I'd recommend the work be done prior to purchase and have the owner get a PPI from a reputable Indy shop separate from the dealer.

[Huz-Z]

That’s very low mileage to be sure so I see why the car caught your attention. When you say the dealer is out of state, are they so far away that follow up work at that dealer is impractical for you? If you pursue this, you should bring your concerns about the need for follow up work to the dealer and current owners attention. If you buy the car, you should get written acknowledgement from the dealer that they will honour the repair warranty for you, even though it was done by the current owner. Also, can this warranty be honoured at a dealer local to you?

Many of the gang here know theses cars very well and do their own work. You have taken a great step asking for their opinions. Good luck!

[PK1]

Thanks both. The second PPI is a good idea.

The car is 1500+ miles away, so it would score high on the impracticality scale! I don't see how a repair warranty would be transferable from dealer to dealer unless both dealers are owned by the same person or entity, but not sure how likely that would be.

If the "only" issue with the car is the head gasket with no oil water cross mix (potentially affecting bearings), then I would almost prefer getting the money off the car and dealing with it myself. The obvious issue, of course, is what other issues could be lurking in there that won't be apparent.

I can tolerate some risk for a good price, this would be my 3rd car/2nd hobby car so I can take my time with it. I just don't want to buy a head gasket issue only to find out I need a new engine!

[ToddBlack88]

I know up here if the repair is done at a bmw dealership, it is warranted 2 years parts and labour, from BMW and is valid at any BMW dealer.

Obviously it could be completely different down there.

[Huz-Z]

Originally Posted by PK1

Thanks both. The second PPI is a good idea.

The car is 1500+ miles away, so it would score high on the impracticality scale! I don't see how a repair warranty would be transferable from dealer to dealer unless both dealers are owned by the same person or entity, but not sure how likely that would be.

If the "only" issue with the car is the head gasket with no oil water cross mix (potentially affecting bearings), then I would almost prefer getting the money off the car and dealing with it myself. The obvious issue, of course, is what other issues could be lurking in there that won't be apparent.

I can tolerate some risk for a good price, this would be my 3rd car/2nd hobby car so I can take my time with it. I just don't want to buy a head gasket issue only to find out I need a new engine!

I agree on all points.

If you decide to pursue this, then get the current owner and the dealer to show you the cars service history from day one.

Good luck!

[PK1]

Just made a couple of calls to see what we're talking about here:

- local BMW dealer: $6K! 27 hours of labor plus $800 parts
- local BMW Indy specialist: $5K!

[Reborn_]

In my perspective, low mileage carries zero value when the car has problems. A blown head gasket at that mileage means an extremely unlucky owner or an extremely negligent owner. In either case, I would walk.

[Huz-Z]

Originally Posted by PK1

Just made a couple of calls to see what we're talking about here:

- local BMW dealer: $6K! 27 hours of labor plus $800 parts
- local BMW Indy specialist: $5K!

Wow - a significant repair.

[PK1]

While looking for ballpark estimates from Independent BMW specialists I had called two places: the first didn't answer so I called the second place who gave me the estimate above.

The first place I had called but couldn't reach just called me back since he had seen my number. He took the time to ask me very specific questions, which of course I couldn't answer since I haven't seen the dealer service reports nor have I spoken to them. Ultimately he told me the same thing: if it's only the head gasket change it's $4-5K, if the head needs any machining it's more. Some of his questions around the symptoms were to try to figure out whether it was really the head gasket or something additional to the head gasket (for example compression issues may point to valve problems). Any block problems would mean a replacement engine which with overhaul would be $10K.

Unless it's completely misdiagnosed, it's a major repair anyway I look at it. I learned a few things going through this process.

Resuming my search for other options...

[vt100]

Originally Posted by Reborn_

In my perspective, low mileage carries zero value when the car has problems. A blown head gasket at that mileage means an extremely unlucky owner or an extremely negligent owner. In either case, I would walk.

+1

But I 'd also add that dealer maintenance records have zero value in my eyes to say the least.
Every time I had to give my cars to a dealer for warranty repairs - they would break something else or wouldn't assemble it back correctly. And practically always there were several bolts / nuts missing.
So if a dealer did a major engine / trany repair on a car I'm looking to buy - I'd not touch this car with a ten foot pole.

[Huz-Z]

Originally Posted by vt100

+1

But I 'd also add that dealer maintenance records have zero value in my eyes to say the least.
Every time I had to give my cars to a dealer for warranty repairs - they would break something else or wouldn't assemble it back correctly. And practically always there were several bolts / nuts missing.
So if a dealer did a major engine / trany repair on a car I'm looking to buy - I'd not touch this car with a ten foot pole.

I was thinking the dealer records could be reviewed for evidence to suggest the car has a poor service history or was treated poorly.

[KevinC]

$5k for a head gasket? Really? Seems crazy-high to me.

Unless the car is priced really aggressively low, I'd walk. If the repair cost is properly factored in, AND the resulting price is on the low side to make up for taking some risk, AND if the Carfax is clean (no actual guarantee of anything, but at least not a bad sign), then I might proceed with a PPI, to include a thorough check for paint/body work.

I went through a similar situation last year when I found what seemed to be the ideal M Coupe, but it was clear across the country from me (Arizona --> Philadelphia area). The owner allayed all my concerns, we met on a price we were both happy with (somewhat below his original ask), I flew out to see/drive the car, and the deal was done right then and there. Long distance deals can be tricky but when the right car beckons, you do what you gotta do. Very happy that I did. I hope it all works out for you, good luck!

[PK1]

Originally Posted by KevinC

I went through a similar situation last year when I found what seemed to be the ideal M Coupe, but it was clear across the country from me (Arizona --> Philadelphia area). The owner allayed all my concerns, we met on a price we were both happy with (somewhat below his original ask), I flew out to see/drive the car, and the deal was done right then and there. Long distance deals can be tricky but when the right car beckons, you do what you gotta do. Very happy that I did. I hope it all works out for you, good luck!

I have done the exact same thing in the past with a different car: flew out to see it, did the deal then drove the car home but the distance was reasonable (600-700 miles). In your case, I'm assuming you had it shipped. Did you leave the car with seller while arranging for shipment?

[KevinC]

Originally Posted by PK1

I have done the exact same thing in the past with a different car: flew out to see it, did the deal then drove the car home but the distance was reasonable (600-700 miles). In your case, I'm assuming you had it shipped. Did you leave the car with seller while arranging for shipment?

I did have it shipped, and had Inspection 1 done by his indy before it was picked up. It was indeed left with him in the meantime. Having been to his house, seen his other cars, shaken his hand, etc., I was totally confident that this was a non-issue. And it all went very smoothly.

At least until the truck came to pick it up. Long story there, but they were idiots and I had to go out of my way and meet them at MY end on delivery day, 200 miles from home. But the car got here in 1 piece and I got some money back on the original quote since they only brought it 90% of the way.

[SD ///M4]

A PPI is usually a good idea, but if the person doing the PPI isn't particularly competent, they're worthless. Also, the opinions of other forum members might not be that good either.

When I bought my 2006 M Roadster in 2012, it was in the SF Bay Area and I was in San Diego. It's Interlagos Blue with the Extended Leather interior and Carbon Leather trim, which is exactly how I would have ordered it if I bought it new. I had several detailed phone calls with the salesperson and he was pretty straightforward in his descriptions, looking at specific things that I asked him to. I decided to fly up, and arranged for a local independent to do a PPI, agreed to by the dealer.

The first thing that the tech noticed after he put it up on the lift is that the front bumper had been resprayed on the car. He warned that the bumper was probably damaged but it turned out that the dealer just did a poor job of masking when they resprayed the fangs, a common damage area. Next the tech said that the seats were in too good of a condition, so they were probably removed and replaced with race seats and the car must have been raced. The front fender liners were worn through and front fender liners were scuffed, so the tech said that the owner must have had "oversized racing slicks" to have caused that damage. The diff was seeping, the tech said more evidence that it was abused, but after calling my M-certified BMW mechanic, he said that this was common and not a concern. I decided the tech that did the PPI was incompetent.

I even mentioned all of this on this forum and had many tell me to walk because the car was obviously abused. The car was in too good a condition with low mileage (32,000 in 2012), so I took a chance. I found that the original owner was a member here, he had a motorcycle that he rode most of the time while the car was garaged, accounting for the low mileage and generally good condition. I also found out that he kept putting increasingly larger 19" wheels/tires on it, causing them to rub through the fender liners. It was never autocrossed or raced. He got married and his wife said either the Roadster or the bike had to go, so he traded it in on a new 135i. It turns out that the car was actually a cream puff! I took it to a local BMW dealer for a post-sales inspection and they passed it with flying colors.

Because the original owner took off the original wheels and tires at about 1200 miles and stored them in his garage, I also ended up with rims that didn't have a scratch on them and nearly new tires. Unfortunately, the tires were six years old, so I replaced them with Michelin Pilot Super Sports. I replaced the fender liners and did the 30,000 mile service, including the valve adjustment, myself. The car has been bulletproof since then. I autocrossed it for 4 years before I bought my 2016 M4. Because of problems I had with my first used car purchase in 1969, I swore to only buy new cars. I've never bought a used car again before this, but this has been one of the best car purchases I've ever made.

That said, if it had a head gasket problem I would have passed.

[KevinC]

^^ great story. And so true that it's very possible to get a sketchy PPI. A bunch of stuff the first guy noted would have had me on alert immediately. Glad you hung with it and made the right call in the end.

[wdb]

This is a strange story. I've been following these cars for several years and have never heard of a head gasket issue with the S54; that alone set my spidey-sense tingling. And the car is 1500 miles away so it's not like I could hop over and have a look for myself. Danger Will Robinson.

You need a PPI from someone you can trust. Perhaps people on the forum can recommend someone in the vicinity of the vehicle.

[PK1]

SD ///M4 - Frankly, the PPI mechanic's deductions seem logical given the signs! I'm glad in the end it was a great car.

I last spoke with the seller earlier in the week, and he told me he was going to look into "having the issue addressed" by the dealer and get back to me if I was still interested. I told him to give me a call once he learned more, I haven't spoken to him since. In the meanwhile I made a few inquiries of my own which I noted above.

I'm looking at other options, but if the seller calls once he's learned more I'll continue the dialogue with him. I'd really like to know what the exact dealer's diagnosis was, and what the report said.

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by PK1

SD ///M4 - Frankly, the PPI mechanics deductions seem logical given the signs! I'm glad in the end it was a great car.

In hindsight, I think that the mechanic decided early on that the car was abused and looked for anything else that would support his conclusion. I'm not a professional mechanic, but I've done a fair amount of maintenance work on a large number of cars, and I've also tracked several cars, and nothing he was saying led me to the same conclusion that he did. I forgot to mention that he thought that the H&R springs installed by the previous owner were further proof that the car had been "raced". It's a convertible and there was no evidence that a roll bar had been installed, so this wasn't even a remote possibility.

The seats were in such good shape because the original owner only put about 5,000 miles/year on the car and the rest of the interior supported that. The engine bay area was spotless. The only "abuse" that I saw was the poor selection of aftermarket tires and wheels on a car that was already lowered with H&R springs.