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      02-26-2019, 12:38 AM   #67
sirhodjibob
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Hey guys, question for those of you running one of these boxes- I've read for the install you have to cut or splice the wires from the MAF to the IAT - does the Turner plug and play kit eliminate the need to do this?

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...rness/?pdk=Agk

Also, have any of you used the CSL dipstick or did you just bend yours out of the way?
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      02-26-2019, 09:41 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhodjibob View Post
Hey guys, question for those of you running one of these boxes- I've read for the install you have to cut or splice the wires from the MAF to the IAT - does the Turner plug and play kit eliminate the need to do this?

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...rness/?pdk=Agk

Also, have any of you used the CSL dipstick or did you just bend yours out of the way?
Yes the Turner kit will work (that's what I and others have used) and makes for a cleaner install without butchering your harness.

For the dipstick, you could either go with the CSL dipstick (weight savings bro) or move your factory one out of the way. I haven't yet, but apparently this can be done without bending and just rotating.
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      02-26-2019, 11:53 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockstar93 View Post
Yes the Turner kit will work (that's what I and others have used) and makes for a cleaner install without butchering your harness.

For the dipstick, you could either go with the CSL dipstick (weight savings bro) or move your factory one out of the way. I haven't yet, but apparently this can be done without bending and just rotating.
Lol @ weight savings. Bro, I am so ///motorsport I stopped wearing underwear for weight savings.

Thank you very much for the guidance. Placed my order for the Evolve box today through ECS. I was told Evolve has them in stock and should arrive in 2-4 business days. I called the sales number and got a 5% discount!

Last edited by sirhodjibob; 02-26-2019 at 12:30 PM.. Reason: grammar
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      02-26-2019, 08:26 PM   #70
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On sale for $3,500 with tune

http://www.evolvetuning.us/bmw/z-ser...box.html?sl=EN
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      02-27-2019, 01:41 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob0047 View Post
I paid just under $2500 from ECS without tune. Based on reviews here, likely going with Epic for Alpha N tuning.
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      05-06-2019, 09:36 PM   #72
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So to re-cap the whole CSL Airbox retrofit to the Z4M

Pro's:

- Looks amazing
- Intake sound is pronounced and unique
- A CSL intake in an already limited production Z4 M is extremely special

Con's

- Need's a Tune to disable MAF sensor, which in turn removes some of the cars functionality (No Heel and Toe)
- Is unreasonably expensive
- With aftermarket headers and exhaust, won't be heard
- Negligible gains

Pricing aside, I'm not sold about the tune and removing the MAF sensor. Gut feeling tells me there are more issues to it than people like to reveal. Like yeah, the sound is amazing but at expense of what? drivability?

Last edited by Dav3; 05-07-2019 at 12:09 AM..
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      05-07-2019, 12:16 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav3 View Post
Con's

- Need's a Tune to disable MAF sensor, which in turn removes some of the cars functionality (No Heel and Toe)
- Is unreasonably expensive
- With aftermarket headers and exhaust, won't be heard
- Negligible gains
The loss of heel 'n' toe is an issue with the one specific vendor's Alpha N Tune afaik and not a general Alpha N Tune side effect. Typically I believe throttle response is regarded as improved with a good tune and the CSL style airbox.

It depends upon the exhaust system as to what you hear. I think it's important to ensure the exhaust doesn't drown out the intake sound (which for me is a much nicer sound). But I think with just something like Euro headers, from the recordings I have listened to, you are getting the primary performance gain without so much additional noise it drowns out the intake sound.

I assume the "negligible gains" is referring to horsepower? From what I understand, headers, tune, and airbox (CSL style or Eventuri style) are the primary means of boosting power in these engines without forced induction or getting into full race builds.

I have an Eventuri intake on my Z4M with stock exhaust and the sounds is fantastic. I definitely could see a CSL airbox in my future because when I listen to an E46 M3 equipped with one, it's an amazing sound, one of the nicest street car sounds I've ever heard.

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      05-07-2019, 12:20 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eggman51 View Post
The loss of heel 'n' toe is an issue with the one specific vendor's Alpha N Tune afaik and not a general Alpha N Tune side effect. Typically I believe throttle response is regarded as improved with a good tune and the CSL style airbox.

I'm a bit stuck on this with my research.

I'd arguably even avoid an engine tune if possible, perhaps through some form of bypass.

Which tune works without flaws is a bit nebulous. Would love to hear someone with some solid knowledge about what would work chime in!
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      05-08-2019, 10:41 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav3 View Post
I'm a bit stuck on this with my research.

I'd arguably even avoid an engine tune if possible, perhaps through some form of bypass.

Which tune works without flaws is a bit nebulous. Would love to hear someone with some solid knowledge about what would work chime in!
The EPIC tune works with out flaws... I have driven a car with the evolve box (i dont think its the best) and EPIC tune and it performed perfectly. Heal/toe response might have been better then stock.

I do agree with a loud exhaust you can't hear the box for shit but my main reason for wanting one is the power gain. The box is the key piece to maximize power with the NA set up. It is normal for guys with the box/cams/tune to hit 340+whp. Check out M3forum.net

As stated in a previous post the people that had issues with their Alpha N tune were down to one tuner. My friend has that turners regular MAF tune on his e46 M3 and i think it is also a crappy tune.
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      05-08-2019, 11:11 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F360C View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav3 View Post
I'm a bit stuck on this with my research.

I'd arguably even avoid an engine tune if possible, perhaps through some form of bypass.

Which tune works without flaws is a bit nebulous. Would love to hear someone with some solid knowledge about what would work chime in!
The EPIC tune works with out flaws... I have driven a car with the evolve box (i dont think its the best) and EPIC tune and it performed perfectly. Heal/toe response might have been better then stock.

I do agree with a loud exhaust you can't hear the box for shit but my main reason for wanting one is the power gain. The box is the key piece to maximize power with the NA set up. It is normal for guys with the box/cams/tune to hit 340+whp. Check out M3forum.net

As stated in a previous post the people that had issues with their Alpha N tune were down to one tuner. My friend has that turners regular MAF tune on his e46 M3 and i think it is also a crappy tune.
F360c, if you're trying to maximize power off an N/A setup I believe there are a few other things you can do that are more cost effective than a CSL box. (Underdrive pulley, e85 Kit, custom dyno tune, air scoop)
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      05-08-2019, 12:01 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz View Post
F360c, if you're trying to maximize power off an N/A setup I believe there are a few other things you can do that are more cost effective than a CSL box. (Underdrive pulley, e85 Kit, custom dyno tune, air scoop)
Of yes of course there are cheaper ways to make some extra ponies but i was more responding to the OPs comment that the box didn't make any more power and you couldn't heel/toe with it.

If you're happy with around 300ish whp then those mods plus headers will get you there. With those mods (no e85) I put down 310rwhp which was fine but now i want to get into the 330-350whp range. That requires cams and a airbox to get them the air they need.
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      05-08-2019, 12:25 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F360C View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz View Post
F360c, if you're trying to maximize power off an N/A setup I believe there are a few other things you can do that are more cost effective than a CSL box. (Underdrive pulley, e85 Kit, custom dyno tune, air scoop)
Of yes of course there are cheaper ways to make some extra ponies but i was more responding to the OPs comment that the box didn't make any more power and you couldn't heel/toe with it.

If you're happy with around 300ish whp then those mods plus headers will get you there. With those mods (no e85) I put down 310rwhp which was fine but now i want to get into the 330-350whp range. That requires cams and a airbox to get them the air they need.
https://thebuildjournal.com/reviews/...-dyno-results/

330-350whp is easy attainable with a good tune, headers, and intake and the right fuel i
If buildjournal can get 335whp with a 91 octane catted tune, euro cats in section 1, euro headers, and a restrictive eventuri intake and e57 fuel then imagine what could be done be done with a good 91 octane custom tune, headers, no secondary cats, RPI scoop, and e85 kit.. TTFS made 341whp on the stock airbox with a custom e85 tune. CSL box is not required for 330+whp, good fuel/tune, and adequate exhaust flow will give the same results with less chance of detonation in the motor. I have have the dyno which I would be happy to email anyone, bone stock s54 made 304whp on the dyno when we were testing for the AFD kit back in 2017 Baseline was 271whp.
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      05-08-2019, 02:21 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F360C View Post
The EPIC tune works with out flaws... I have driven a car with the evolve box (i dont think its the best) and EPIC tune and it performed perfectly. Heal/toe response might have been better then stock.

I do agree with a loud exhaust you can't hear the box for shit but my main reason for wanting one is the power gain. The box is the key piece to maximize power with the NA set up. It is normal for guys with the box/cams/tune to hit 340+whp. Check out M3forum.net

As stated in a previous post the people that had issues with their Alpha N tune were down to one tuner. My friend has that turners regular MAF tune on his e46 M3 and i think it is also a crappy tune.
Great to hear issues came only with one tuner. I'm in Europe, do you know if could do the Epic flash through OBD & Laptop?

You mention that the evolve box is not the best, what would you suggest?

Last edited by Dav3; 05-08-2019 at 02:30 PM..
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      05-08-2019, 05:50 PM   #80
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I'm really pleased with my Evolve airbox- I liked that it's their own optimized design and not a replica. It's nice for our car as the intake extends towards the factory air inlet more so than the CSL replicas.

I have the TTFS tune and it's arguably smoother than stock, and heel/toe works just fine. I've read good things about Epic too.
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      05-20-2019, 01:24 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav3 View Post
I'm a bit stuck on this with my research.

I'd arguably even avoid an engine tune if possible, perhaps through some form of bypass.

Which tune works without flaws is a bit nebulous. Would love to hear someone with some solid knowledge about what would work chime in!
Epic and Evolve both have tunes that are fully functional these days. Probably others as well. The heel/toe issue with Evolve's Z4M Alpha-N tunes was resolved a couple of years ago.

You can't run a CSL-style airbox without a tune. There are carbon airboxes that have accommodations for a MAF sensor, which you could use without a tune, but the reason that CSL-style airboxes make so much more power is that they don't have the airflow restriction of the MAF sensor. When you delete the MAF sensor to increase airflow, the ECU no longer has a way to measure airflow, so you need to change the way the ECU calculates the amount of fuel to inject.

There are a collection of ways to do this, but they all boil down to "assume some volume of air based on a measured understanding of this specific engine's efficiency given current conditions". Alpha-N (throttle position vs. RPM) is one of the methods of taking these assumptions and turning them into injected fuel, and it happens to be the one that our ECUs use in limp-home mode (and the one that the M3 CSL uses from the factory, for the same reason that Epic and Evolve use it: the firmware's already there and it doesn't use a MAF sensor).

So, bottom line: if you want to run a MAFless airbox for the noise / power, you need to run a MAFless tune. If you don't want to run a MAFless tune, you need a MAF sensor. So pick your airbox, and if you're going MAFless, pick the tuner that is more convenient for you / the dyno operator you're working withh.
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      01-09-2020, 08:39 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
I would do ARH before I’d do an airbox.
Says the guy without a s54 or a Z? ARH doesn’t even fit the Z4 M
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      01-10-2020, 10:42 PM   #83
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Josh, aka Pokey is also doing tunes now, and as he has been an avid contributer of these forums, we should probably try and support him a bit too. At any case, Josh is doing the new tune for my car, and so far the process has been flawless. Top bloke too in my book and a stand up guy. Hes already tuned a few Zeds here from this forum and the remarks have been second to none. Looking forwards to awesome things from him


http://www.severntuning.com/

or just send him an pm on this forum.
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      01-11-2020, 12:16 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav3 View Post
- Need's a Tune to disable MAF sensor, which in turn removes some of the cars functionality (No Heel and Toe)
That means they don't know how to delete the MAF sensor properly.
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      01-11-2020, 07:10 PM   #85
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That means they don't know how to delete the MAF sensor properly.
Yeah that was just preliminary information I sourced out through the forum

Evolve's tune got fixed
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      01-11-2020, 08:31 PM   #86
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So I do have a carbon airbox in my E46 M3 which is a little different. But I will say even with headers and an exhaust, the airbox is still very noticeable and really transforms the experience of driving the car. Driveability is also basically comparable to stock - granted I'm running the CSL DME software which can't be done on the Z4M (though IMO the MSS70 is actually much better suited for mafless setups, it's just harder to tune). It's probably also not impossible to get the MSS70 to work with a MAP sensor since its cousin the MSV70 can, but probably not necessary between the much faster processor and wideband O2s.

The gains are negligible if you get an airbox by itself, but if you're targeting big N/A power, then you need it. I recently got myself a pair of Schrick 288/280s, and that really woke up the car -- with the stock airbox I'd be flow limited at higher RPMs.
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      01-12-2020, 10:20 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Terraphantm View Post
So I do have a carbon airbox in my E46 M3 which is a little different. But I will say even with headers and an exhaust, the airbox is still very noticeable and really transforms the experience of driving the car. Driveability is also basically comparable to stock - granted I'm running the CSL DME software which can't be done on the Z4M (though IMO the MSS70 is actually much better suited for mafless setups, it's just harder to tune). It's probably also not impossible to get the MSS70 to work with a MAP sensor since its cousin the MSV70 can, but probably not necessary between the much faster processor and wideband O2s.

The gains are negligible if you get an airbox by itself, but if you're targeting big N/A power, then you need it. I recently got myself a pair of Schrick 288/280s, and that really woke up the car -- with the stock airbox I'd be flow limited at higher RPMs.
Whp delta with cams?
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      01-12-2020, 09:38 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by 3002 tii View Post
Whp delta with cams?
TBD on my setup. Typical gains seem to be ~20-30 whp depending on supporting hardware (they'll make more with an airbox and headers, especially stepped headers). VANOS tuning also has a big impact.
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