Thoughts of running dedicated Auto-X/Track Pads?

[Kgolf31]

Through a local E46M member, he and I were talking about what pads I should start running for upcoming HPDE days.

He said that he usually had dedicated Track Pads that he used, because he never really saw any pad that was quite enough for street, and didn't overheat at the track.

He also suggested running a more aggressive pad up front and an agressive street in the rear.

The recommendations were Hawk HT-10s (now DTC-60s) in front and Axis Ultimates in the rear.

Anyone else do this? Are there any other pads available that I can get away with leaving on 24/7?

[The HACK]

If a pad is available for both the front and the rear, there's no reason to run different pads front/rear. I've got some anecdotal evidence.

I used to have Cobalt XR3s for the MZ4 Coupe, and for some weird reason the rear wouldn't fit so I ended up using Cool Carbon R/T for the rear. While the combo technically works, it wasn't until I switched over to Hawk DTC-60s all around did I discover a problem. At the same track, I used to see tire pressures of anywhere from 2-4 PSi higher in the front than rear, no matter how I bleed down or air up the front and rear, whenever I come back from a hot session, the front pressure would almost ALWAYS be 2-4 PSi higher. After switching to DTC-60s, surprisingly, my tire pressure would be identical front and rear after setting them to be the same in the morning.

My theory to this is, that having the front brake biased to bite harder by using more aggressive pad up front, results in the front tire working much harder than the rear tire to slow the car down. End result is the front tires heat up quicker and heat up more, resulting in early onset of understeer and forcing an unbalanced chassis few laps in. By using the same pads front and rear, a more neutral brake bias is restored and the end result is a car that's far more planted under braking and equal tire pressure.

IF my choices were that I have to run different compounds front and rear, I would put the more aggressive compound in the front for obvious reasons. But my first choice would be to run the same compound front and rear.

And for DEs I always use a dedicated pad setup. I haven't found anything outside of the über track pads that will survive for more than 5 laps of abuse, which isn't nearly enough. For autocross, it depends on my mood, since sometimes I'll go to AX on street tires and if it's going to be cold, I may not be able to put enough heat into the pads to make them effective.

[Kgolf31]

How did you like the DTC-60s?

Good information, thank you.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

How did you like the DTC-60s?

Good information, thank you.

Less initial brake torque, but more consistent and linear bite and release than the XR3. Excellent pad for my driving style, which often times involves braking early and braking LITTLE. XR3 would probably be better suited if I do more trail braking.

I've found pad compounds are like opinions, which are like @ssholes. Everyone's got one. Mine happens to be the DTC-60 for the track.

[jmillet]

For high performance driving school use I install Performance Friction PF-06 pads on both ends. The dust is very corrosive when wet so I don't run them with my pristine stock street wheels. I've also used Raybestos ST-43 pads in front and Hawk HT-10 pads rear with good results.

[Caddyshk]

I'm using StopTech front and rear and so far so good on the street and track.

[MFGJR]

Originally Posted by jmillet

For high performance driving school use I install Performance Friction PF-06 pads on both ends. The dust is very corrosive when wet so I don't run them with my pristine stock street wheels. I've also used Raybestos ST-43 pads in front and Hawk HT-10 pads rear with good results.

+1 on the PFC 06s, at least vs. OEM and based on my one outing so far on them. Like night and day. 2nd outing starts tomorrow!!!!

I swap pads and rotors (just not to have to re-bed) for track days; swapping just pads really isn't a big job--maybe what, an hour or so, so why not run dedicated track and street pads, and get good, appropriate performance in each situation? You probably ought to do a good bleed after a track day anyway, so you're halfway there anyway...

[jmillet]

I change out pads only along with wheels and tires (Toyo R-888s) as well as set front camber and damper rebound and compression setting at home the day before driving the 40 miles to Pacific Raceway. A couple of hot laps will bed in the pads and coat the rotors
Our instructor clinic is this Saturday with rain in the forecast and temperatures in the mid 40s. Car goes in street setup for this one

Originally Posted by MFGJR

+1 on the PFC 06s, at least vs. OEM and based on my one outing so far on them. Like night and day. 2nd outing starts tomorrow!!!!

I swap pads and rotors (just not to have to re-bed) for track days; swapping just pads really isn't a big job--maybe what, an hour or so, so why not run dedicated track and street pads, and get good, appropriate performance in each situation? You probably ought to do a good bleed after a track day anyway, so you're halfway there anyway...

[Kgolf31]

Will PFC 06s be okay for auto-cross too or will they not get up to temp that fast?

Where can you get PFC 06s? I can't find them anywhere unless they are named something else.

All I can find are these? I have dedicated RS3s for autox and track duty, so if I destroy the wheel I'll just find a cooler color to paint them.

So right now it look like PFC 06s, DTC-60s and Cobalt XR3 (although it says -> Position: Rear; (Not Recommended Compound)). Anything else I should consider?

Yikes, found the price of PFCs...not cheap: http://store.bimmerworld.com/perform...nts-p1061.aspx

[kklin]

"Auto-X/Track" - while they sound like they have the same requirements, can be different. I've autocrossed for many years, but have driven at the track once. Here are some differences from my autocrosser's perspective:

• When you have a 40-50sec autocross run say every 15 minutes or so, your tires/brakes cool off. The preferred tires for autocross versus track will be different whether they are R or non-R compounds. You want autocross tires to heat up quickly. For a 20 minute track session your car is both hotter and for longer periods.
• You can make your car and driver pointier car in a safe autocross environment with usually minimal consequences if something goes fairly wrong.
• The job your suspension performs is also different, see bullet #7 in Tunnell's post. If you're not sure what Bob means by "out of phase", ride with a local hot shoe and watch his hands during a slalom - it will seem that (s)he's turning ridiculously early.

That said, for autocross, my factory E36 M brakes have been fine for my minimal setup (suspension, no motor mods) and I would expect the same for my E86 (only autocrossed once so far). If I drove enough track, I would look into something else.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by kklin

"Auto-X/Track" - while they sound like they have the same requirements, can be different. I've autocrossed for many years, but have driven at the track once. Here are some differences from my autocrosser's perspective:

• When you have a 40-50sec autocross run say every 15 minutes or so, your tires/brakes cool off. The preferred tires for autocross versus track will be different whether they are R or non-R compounds. You want autocross tires to heat up quickly. For a 20 minute track session your car is both hotter and for longer periods.
• You can make your car and driver pointier car in a safe autocross environment with usually minimal consequences if something goes fairly wrong.
• The job your suspension performs is also different, see bullet #7 in Tunnell's post. If you're not sure what Bob means by "out of phase", ride with a local hot shoe and watch his hands during a slalom - it will seem that (s)he's turning ridiculously early.

That said, for autocross, my factory E36 M brakes have been fine for my minimal setup (suspension, no motor mods) and I would expect the same for my E86 (only autocrossed once so far). If I drove enough track, I would look into something else.

I realize they are 2 complete things. I'm trying to find a happy medium though, if that makes sense.

I've had my fair share of spins in auto-x from trying to shave time, of course there wasn't sand right next to me, so that helped (well one time there was a curb, but that involved me going sideways through the finish cones, plowing 5 DNF cones...but that was wet anyways).

I will running RS3s, once again it looks like a happy medium. May take 2 runs to get to temp, we'll see. Once I can get tires to temp, I have no problem keeping them there inbetween runs.

There have been a couple times auto-x where I feel like where I should have more brake. Of course that's me being picky.

Here is one of my latest runs, not the greatest thing...but I know what you mean by turning in early:

[3002 tii]

I never thought you could get track pads up to ideal temps in auto-x. I would think you're better off running an aggressive street pad. I run PFC 06's on the track and Z1 for street, but keep the same rotors. Apparently similar compounds between the 2 pads allow me to not have to worry about rebedding each time. Plus the 06's surprisingly aren't too harsh on the rotors.

[ZStig]

Not that I expect a big difference in autocross this season, I'll be running Stoptech Street Performance pads on OEM rotors (which are surprisingly huge when you hold a new one in your hands)

Its also going to be my daily pad

[Caddyshk]

Originally Posted by Roffle Waffle

Not that I expect a big difference in autocross this season, I'll be running Stoptech Street Performance pads on OEM rotors (which are surprisingly huge when you hold a new one in your hands)

Its also going to be my daily pad

Good setup IMO

[kennyfrc]

OP,

Try Carbotech XP8, I ran the XP 10 and had more brakes than tire grip. ABS was on a hair trigger and tires were sliding. Also, Carbotech dust will rinse off with a water hose! No exaggeration a garden hose will remove 90%+ of the dust from a track weekend and NEVER sticks to the wheels even when they get wet.

Hawk, Cobalt, PF, and others will RUIN your wheels and don't stop any better.

Carbotech

[TexasZed4MC]

Kenny what class are you running at DE's? I am advanced and instructor and this is the first time out in the Z4 MC for a DE. I have always used my E30 M3 before. I used Hawk HT-10 on it, but it had coilovers, camber plates, track tires and wheels. I want something thats not going to destroy the rotors but have great stopping.

[kennyfrc]

Originally Posted by TexasZed4MC

Kenny what class are you running at DE's? I am advanced and instructor and this is the first time out in the Z4 MC for a DE. I have always used my E30 M3 before. I used Hawk HT-10 on it, but it had coilovers, camber plates, track tires and wheels. I want something thats not going to destroy the rotors but have great stopping.

Im running in NASA DE3, Chin intermediate solo. If you're on anything other than hosier slicks get the XP8. The XP 10 when hot have so much grip that they will slide street tires and engage abs with light to moderate pedal pressure. In my opinion they were overkill. I have been running Carbotech pads for years on many cars and have never had them eat rotors or wheels. It's just not an issue........

[TexasZed4MC]

Well for the first DE in the car it will be on some soft compound street tires, so I will look at the Xp8....thanks for the info and help

[melo]

Originally Posted by kennyfrc

OP,

Try Carbotech XP8, I ran the XP 10 and had more brakes than tire grip. ABS was on a hair trigger and tires were sliding. Also, Carbotech dust will rinse off with a water hose! No exaggeration a garden hose will remove 90%+ of the dust from a track weekend and NEVER sticks to the wheels even when they get wet.

Hawk, Cobalt, PF, and others will RUIN your wheels and don't stop any better.

Carbotech

which model of Carbotech is more suitable for street? and any tips on where i can get good deals on these pads?

thanks buddy