Alignment Critique Please

Punko · 09-08-2012, 09:50 AM

I want high speed stability, better front turn in and less front tire wear on the outer edge.

Camber shims installed.

Stock suspension and wheels, 245/265 tires, sport street driving, 3 driver training days.

I am concerned that reducing rear toe below OEM settings will impact high speed turn stability.

-2.00* front camber
.00* front toe

-1.58* rear camber
.37* rear toe

Front Camber......... -2*00' +/-20'.... -2*20'/-1*40'...... -2.33*/-1.67*

Front Total Toe In... 0*06' +/-06'..... 0*12'/ 0*00'......... .20*/.00* ..

Rear Camber.......... -1*50' +/-15'..... -2*05'/-1*35' .... -2.08*/-1.58*

Rear Total Toe In... 0*28' +/-06'...... 0*34'/ 0*22' ...... .57*/.37*..

The HACK · 09-08-2012, 12:32 PM

High speed stability = toe-in front and rear. Better turn-in = toe-out front and negative camber. Less front tire outer edge wear = negative camber and less toe-in.

ZStig · 09-08-2012, 04:43 PM

yeah I was gonna say that too, turn in and high speed stability are sort of opposites

Punko · 09-08-2012, 05:40 PM

Thanks guys.

I am worried about the over steer at speed.

The HACK · 09-08-2012, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punko

Thanks guys.

I am worried about the over steer at speed.

Oversteer? At speed? You'd have to royally f**k up the alignment on this car to create that sort of handling characteristic.

As long as you have some minor toe-in in the rear it's unlikely to see high-speed oversteer in this chassis.

Punko · 09-09-2012, 07:49 AM

OK, great, again thanks for the comments.

If sticking to stock range in the rear, what would be the recommended target values?

This is the stock range:
Rear Camber -2.08*/-1.58*
Rear Toe .57*/.37*

The HACK · 09-09-2012, 11:20 AM

The smaller of the two camber will give you better rear tire wear, but reduce rear grip. Depends on how much "spirited' driving you do, if you don't track the car often I'd go with the lower end of the camber (-1.58º).

Couple that with moderate rear toe-in you should get pretty even wear AND good high speed stability. I'd go for a figure that falls somewhere between the two toe settings, and see if you can shoot for 0º 45' or thereabout. Too much rear toe will make the outside edge wear accelerate.

Punko · 09-11-2012, 08:21 AM

OEM rear total toe is 0*34'/ 0*22'.

Are you suggesting more than OEM? I think you meant .45* degrees, right?

Punko · 09-11-2012, 07:12 PM

Went to my local dealer for the alignment...they can't do it without taking the front bumper off.

The arms come off the center of the wheel cannot extend past the front of the bumper to measure toe.

Hunter machine about 7 to 10 years old.

There is another dealer that has their machine in a pit and uses different arms and lasers.

Finnegan · 09-11-2012, 08:03 PM

Ugh, I didn't know you were going to have a dealer do this.

Save yourself a headache and call and see if they'll even do a "performance alignment" before wasting your time. Many will not do anything but stock specs, and -2.0 is not stock and neither is zero front toe. Some dealers are great, I'm not saying all have issues, but there's a range of tolerance for mods and spec deviation that they'll tolerate.

Also know that many are not super particular about how close they get it to your specs (you'll hear "it's in the range"), so make sure they are really going to nail it for you before leaving the car. I get the sense from this and other threads you are (as many of us, including me) are kind of particular about what you want/expect.

I bet that most indies or race shops will probably work better for what you're looking for, and be able to provide good feedback/input as well.

seank · 09-11-2012, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punko

Went to my local dealer for the alignment...they can't do it without taking the front bumper off.

The arms come off the center of the wheel cannot extend past the front of the bumper to measure toe.

Hunter machine about 7 to 10 years old.

There is another dealer that has their machine in a pit and uses different arms and lasers.

HUH.

What Fin said!

Punko · 09-12-2012, 05:48 AM

Thanks guys, they had no problems with the specifications I gave them and also the range that I wanted.

I may make the camber tool used on the top of the strut so that I can release the three fasteners at the top, push to the motor and accurately return back into position.

Punko · 09-17-2012, 05:23 PM

So here are the numbers I ended up with, spacer shims installed.

Couldn't get the front R camber closer to -2.0, best we could push it down to was -2.88.

Tech recommended the slight front camber difference from left to right would help keep the car tracking on roads with a crown.

Why would my right rear toe have been out so much?

Front Camber L/R
Before: -2.43*/-3.04*
After: -2.65*/-2.88*
Target: -0.50* to -1.500*

Front Toe L/R/Total
Before: -.12"/-.09"/-.20"
After: +.00"/+.00"/+.00"
Target: +.00" to +.04" (total)

Rear Camber L/R
Before: -1.73*/-1.40*
After: -1.89*/-1.84*
Target: -1.75* to -1.91*

Rear Toe L/R/Total
Before: +.07"/-.01"/+.06"
After: +.04"/+.04"/+.08"
Target: +.09" to +.15" (total)

09-08-2012, 09:50 AM	#1
Punko Second Lieutenant 20 Rep 250 Posts Drives: 07 Z4 M Coupe Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Hamilton, ON iTrader: (2)	Alignment Critique Please I want high speed stability, better front turn in and less front tire wear on the outer edge. Camber shims installed. Stock suspension and wheels, 245/265 tires, sport street driving, 3 driver training days. I am concerned that reducing rear toe below OEM settings will impact high speed turn stability. -2.00* front camber .00* front toe -1.58* rear camber .37* rear toe Front Camber......... -200' +/-20'.... -220'/-140'...... -2.33/-1.67* Front Total Toe In... 006' +/-06'..... 012'/ 000'......... .20/.00* .. Rear Camber.......... -150' +/-15'..... -205'/-135' .... -2.08/-1.58* Rear Total Toe In... 028' +/-06'...... 034'/ 022' ...... .57/.37.. Last edited by Punko; 09-17-2012 at 07:54 PM..*
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09-08-2012, 12:32 PM	#2
The HACK Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class 1821 Rep 5,337 Posts Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day iTrader: (1)	High speed stability = toe-in front and rear. Better turn-in = toe-out front and negative camber. Less front tire outer edge wear = negative camber and less toe-in. __________________ Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
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09-08-2012, 04:43 PM	#3
ZStig instagram 997turbotom 279 Rep 7,377 Posts Drives: Interlagos Z4MR Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Delray Beach, FL iTrader: (4)	yeah I was gonna say that too, turn in and high speed stability are sort of opposites __________________
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09-08-2012, 05:40 PM	#4
Punko Second Lieutenant 20 Rep 250 Posts Drives: 07 Z4 M Coupe Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Hamilton, ON iTrader: (2)	Thanks guys. I am worried about the over steer at speed.
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09-09-2012, 07:49 AM	#6
Punko Second Lieutenant 20 Rep 250 Posts Drives: 07 Z4 M Coupe Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Hamilton, ON iTrader: (2)	OK, great, again thanks for the comments. If sticking to stock range in the rear, what would be the recommended target values? This is the stock range: Rear Camber -2.08/-1.58 Rear Toe .57/.37
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09-09-2012, 11:20 AM	#7
The HACK Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class 1821 Rep 5,337 Posts Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day iTrader: (1)	The smaller of the two camber will give you better rear tire wear, but reduce rear grip. Depends on how much "spirited' driving you do, if you don't track the car often I'd go with the lower end of the camber (-1.58º). Couple that with moderate rear toe-in you should get pretty even wear AND good high speed stability. I'd go for a figure that falls somewhere between the two toe settings, and see if you can shoot for 0º 45' or thereabout. Too much rear toe will make the outside edge wear accelerate. __________________ Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

09-11-2012, 08:21 AM	#8
Punko Second Lieutenant 20 Rep 250 Posts Drives: 07 Z4 M Coupe Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Hamilton, ON iTrader: (2)	OEM rear total toe is 034'/ 022'. Are you suggesting more than OEM? I think you meant .45* degrees, right?
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09-11-2012, 07:12 PM	#9
Punko Second Lieutenant 20 Rep 250 Posts Drives: 07 Z4 M Coupe Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Hamilton, ON iTrader: (2)	Went to my local dealer for the alignment...they can't do it without taking the front bumper off. The arms come off the center of the wheel cannot extend past the front of the bumper to measure toe. Hunter machine about 7 to 10 years old. There is another dealer that has their machine in a pit and uses different arms and lasers.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

09-11-2012, 08:03 PM	#10
Finnegan Dog Listener 703 Rep 7,850 Posts Drives: Z4M/. Z3M, E36/46 M3 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Teaching the dog to slalom iTrader: (22)	Ugh, I didn't know you were going to have a dealer do this. Save yourself a headache and call and see if they'll even do a "performance alignment" before wasting your time. Many will not do anything but stock specs, and -2.0 is not stock and neither is zero front toe. Some dealers are great, I'm not saying all have issues, but there's a range of tolerance for mods and spec deviation that they'll tolerate. Also know that many are not super particular about how close they get it to your specs (you'll hear "it's in the range"), so make sure they are really going to nail it for you before leaving the car. I get the sense from this and other threads you are (as many of us, including me) are kind of particular about what you want/expect. I bet that most indies or race shops will probably work better for what you're looking for, and be able to provide good feedback/input as well.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

09-12-2012, 05:48 AM	#12
Punko Second Lieutenant 20 Rep 250 Posts Drives: 07 Z4 M Coupe Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Hamilton, ON iTrader: (2)	Thanks guys, they had no problems with the specifications I gave them and also the range that I wanted. I may make the camber tool used on the top of the strut so that I can release the three fasteners at the top, push to the motor and accurately return back into position.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

09-17-2012, 05:23 PM	#13
Punko Second Lieutenant 20 Rep 250 Posts Drives: 07 Z4 M Coupe Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Hamilton, ON iTrader: (2)	So here are the numbers I ended up with, spacer shims installed. Couldn't get the front R camber closer to -2.0, best we could push it down to was -2.88. Tech recommended the slight front camber difference from left to right would help keep the car tracking on roads with a crown. Why would my right rear toe have been out so much? Front Camber L/R Before: -2.43/-3.04 After: -2.65/-2.88 Target: -0.50* to -1.500* Front Toe L/R/Total Before: -.12"/-.09"/-.20" After: +.00"/+.00"/+.00" Target: +.00" to +.04" (total) Rear Camber L/R Before: -1.73/-1.40 After: -1.89/-1.84 Target: -1.75* to -1.91* Rear Toe L/R/Total Before: +.07"/-.01"/+.06" After: +.04"/+.04"/+.08" Target: +.09" to +.15" (total)
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