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      08-03-2020, 12:59 PM   #221
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I think this has less to do with "keeping up with the Joneses" and more to do with a society that primarily evaluates their spending in terms of monthly expenses. Car companies have done a great job exploiting this change with lease terms that seem like a bargain compared to a traditional car payment.

This modern financial behavior is why I have zero sympathy for people who get sucked into the US's personal debt crisis.
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      08-08-2020, 10:40 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by spazzyfry123 View Post
Interestingly enough, I'd say that my experience is inverse. I would consider myself to have been much more a "car enthusiast" in the first five or so years of driving than as I sit right now. I'd say the longest I held on to a car was about six months, and this allowed me to experience quite the spectrum of vehicles in the <$20k market AND people. If I wanted a car, I'd find someone else with a title and we'd trade or I'd sell it. I'd tinker with it, get involved in its respective community, and then repeat the process. I've got so many stories, trips, experiences, friendships out of this and had an absolute blast. Granted, this was before the state of Georgia had sales tax on private sales, so it cost me effectively nothing. If it did cost me something, the math generally came out to be fun > expense.

Now, I'm holding on to cars for years. I still love cars with it being very high on my "List of Importance." It's just not at the top anymore. So, now I'm a "lesser" enthusiast, but I'm holding on to the cars. Maybe I've become lazy. Maybe it just doesn't matter as much. Maybe I'll rebound my love. I still have a list of cars I lust for, but I think the next one I get is going to be a perpetual project. I think I'd rather add to the collection than replace.
I've actually just hit that stage recently, at one point I'd clamour to test the newest or upgrade even if it was 20HP and I'd enjoy shopping about, talking about cars, researching, going on track days or trying out the latest model.

Unfortunately now I'm able to afford some very nice cars I also couldn't care less, I'd happily trundle to the shop in a Yaris.

I think modern cars and modern driving is a part of it, for a start the roads here are overpopulated. Traffic jams, highway cruising and potential accidents are all too common, safety regulations have tightened to address said issues and you're stuck with a powerful car thinking what's the point?

I'll keep my F30 3'er until it dies because IMO we have hit the land of diminishing gains but higher price tags. An upper end "premium" car from the last five / ten at least is highly competent, has everything you actually need and often wayyyy too much for the road.
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      08-09-2020, 02:04 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I have this argument with the wife all the time. She wants to lease and says repairs are insane but i've never seen a scenario where it's cheaper to keep updating every 3 years than send money on repairs. If you want a new car just say so, don't pretend it is cheaper than an old one.
I felt the same until the cars get out of the warranty period then eat away at your mental health for a new light going off every month. Then going to the dealer is a rip off so you go to an independent shop where there are obviously no loaner cars. At a certain point you are spending so much on repairs relative to the value of the car that it's not worth it, not to mention the headaches/anxiety and time wasted that go along with it.

I've accepted that personally I'll be leasing a fun somewhat affordable car like an M2 and then keep an old BMW or Porsche in the garage for weekend fun. It's too bad Lexus refuses to make a proper driver's car otherwise that would make a reliable and cheap to maintain daily driver. The LC is an amazing product especially once they depreciate, but it's more a cruiser.
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      08-09-2020, 06:00 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I felt the same until the cars get out of the warranty period then eat away at your mental health for a new light going off every month. Then going to the dealer is a rip off so you go to an independent shop where there are obviously no loaner cars. At a certain point you are spending so much on repairs relative to the value of the car that it's not worth it, not to mention the headaches/anxiety and time wasted that go along with it.

I've accepted that personally I'll be leasing a fun somewhat affordable car like an M2 and then keep an old BMW or Porsche in the garage for weekend fun. It's too bad Lexus refuses to make a proper driver's car otherwise that would make a reliable and cheap to maintain daily driver. The LC is an amazing product especially once they depreciate, but it's more a cruiser.
you've nailed exactly where I've landed as an enthusiast, a newer and tighter reliable car for the more regular use and a manual normally aspirated keeper car in the background (in my case an r8 v0 6mt, which I am still on the hunt for)
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      08-09-2020, 06:35 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by 10" View Post
That's not true at all. Cars if anything are waaaaaay more reliable than they used to be with way more access to repairs than ever. Even parts availability is so easy these days. Older cars literally broke all the time and usually were done by 100k miles. These days 100k miles is considered nothing...
Agreed. Cost of ownership maintenance does increase as time goes by. While most maintenance is affordable, manufacturers also have parts that fail that end up being more than the value of the car at some point. Some cars fare better than others. A few examples would be K-cars, Yugos and Gremlins. If they were reliable and cheap to maintain, they’d still be on the road. The other issue is parts availability. At some point, manufacturers stop producing parts for cars they no longer build, then you rely on the open market. If there’s no demand, you won’t be finding any parts.

One of the reasons you have almost cult for Jeeps (especially older ones) and Porsches are they either are very reliable and/or their value eclipses any maintenance required.
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      08-09-2020, 09:30 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
It's too bad Lexus refuses to make a proper driver's car otherwise that would make a reliable and cheap to maintain daily driver. The LC is an amazing product especially once they depreciate, but it's more a cruiser.
This is why I'm hoping that the rumors of an Inline 6 and RWD Mazda6 is true. They know how to do sport and premium and reliability has been very good. They have the ingredients for an excellent mid-size sport sedan so hopefully they get it right.
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      08-09-2020, 03:42 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by M5theonlyone View Post
Non car people are the problem leasing,renting,whatever and changing every two to three years or so making car values drop and flooding the second hand market with too many vehicles..
As the OP says if people took pride in their purchases and kept hold of them longer and cared for them then there would be fewer cars to chase and they would be worth much more
It is not non-car people or cars per se. Its the american system of living. We are consumers.... we enjoy the latest and greatest while living pay check to pay check without actually having any money to own things. We just rent them...

want a new laptop? sure... X dollars a month and its yours
want a new iPhone? sure... x dollars a month and you can have a new one every year
want a new car? sure... what kind of PAYMENTS are you looking for?

its hard to appreciate things you don't own, never saved up for and merely rent. you'll trade it for a new one every other year with 70% of its life left. most of us don't even have enough money in our savings account to pay for 1 month of utilities/rent, yet we are surrounded with the latest tech.

Kids in a 3rd world country would keep a cell phone for 10 years, if they're even lucky enough to own one. kids in this country jump into the pool with one... because insurance !
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      08-09-2020, 08:58 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I felt the same until the cars get out of the warranty period then eat away at your mental health for a new light going off every month. Then going to the dealer is a rip off so you go to an independent shop where there are obviously no loaner cars. At a certain point you are spending so much on repairs relative to the value of the car that it's not worth it, not to mention the headaches/anxiety and time wasted that go along with it.
It's just not true though, I mean the thoughts are but they are irrational. Short of lunching an engine, you are always in front on a used off warranty car because depreciation is such a SAVAGE expense, almost noting compares to it.

Case in point, my 9-3 was part of a 18 month period where GM installed poor fitting valves and the repair cost me $1200. Wife is like WE SHOULD JUST LEASE and i'm like IT'S LESS THAN 2 FUCKING LEASE PAYMENTS.

Buy 3 years old, keep for at least 7 years, there's no one you're not in front unless she lunches an engine.

And the whole argument that repairs on a cheap car don't makes sense......doesn't make sense. The value of the car is utterly irrelevant what matters is the replacement cost.

My 9-3 is worth maybe $5k, I spent $1200 in repairs last year as brakes, shocks etc were all due. Replacement cost for an equivalent sized vehicle is bare minimum $500 a month, and even that is stretching it.

Depreciation kills you.
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      08-09-2020, 09:32 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
It's just not true though, I mean the thoughts are but they are irrational. Short of lunching an engine, you are always in front on a used off warranty car because depreciation is such a SAVAGE expense, almost noting compares to it.

Case in point, my 9-3 was part of a 18 month period where GM installed poor fitting valves and the repair cost me $1200. Wife is like WE SHOULD JUST LEASE and i'm like IT'S LESS THAN 2 FUCKING LEASE PAYMENTS.

Buy 3 years old, keep for at least 7 years, there's no one you're not in front unless she lunches an engine.

And the whole argument that repairs on a cheap car don't makes sense......doesn't make sense. The value of the car is utterly irrelevant what matters is the replacement cost.

My 9-3 is worth maybe $5k, I spent $1200 in repairs last year as brakes, shocks etc were all due. Replacement cost for an equivalent sized vehicle is bare minimum $500 a month, and even that is stretching it.

Depreciation kills you.
I see your point for sure. Leasing is definitely throwing away money as is buying a new car; best bang for your buck is a slightly used car, that's what I did for my daily driver. But unfortunately used German cars are just too big a headache for me to deal with as daily drivers. A used Lexus on the other hand is a stellar purchase. But there are good apples and bad apples in every bunch.
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      08-10-2020, 02:34 PM   #230
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I do agree that the debate about buying new, leasing, or buying various degrees of used ends up as a circular argument at some point. Between payments, interest, depreciation, opportunity cost, repairs and everything - every option is gonna cost you money. There's no way to have a car for free or close to it.

So either you :

do this expected-value analysis of the cost of expenses incurred for each option, multiplied by the likelihood of each expense occurring, then pick the lowest cost option, even if it's a 2014 Corolla (spoiler alert: it is )

Or: pick the car you want (or keep it) and just accept that it's going to cost money. But at the same time, educate yourself on the true, total cost of having that particular vehicle and make sure it's both within your means and your appetite for spending money
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      08-10-2020, 04:59 PM   #231
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Depreciation kills you.
That's the short of it, in another thread I posted the difference in cost between upgrading my current car (via finance) then repeating over the next eight years vs. owning the one I have now for eight years. There's a 43K difference..

I could have literally bought a few second hand 340i's just to use in case mine broke down. It's crazy when you really look into it..

Although it's far from news to me and sometimes leasing is a fun way to try multiple different cars. I understand, sometimes you get bored, sometimes circumstance change, sometimes you don't like your car and finance is a great way to get into cars you couldn't normally afford to buy cash.

Ultimately though chopping and changing will never help in terms of fiscals. Although for many years I really didn't care, just happy to try as much as I can. It's probably one of the reason I find cars a little dull nowadays, once you've tried a metric ton of them the appeal diminishes.
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      08-11-2020, 06:33 AM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I see your point for sure. Leasing is definitely throwing away money as is buying a new car; best bang for your buck is a slightly used car, that's what I did for my daily driver. But unfortunately used German cars are just too big a headache for me to deal with as daily drivers. A used Lexus on the other hand is a stellar purchase. But there are good apples and bad apples in every bunch.
Precisely. That's why I daily a Toyota Tundra, would consider Lexus cars too, I happen to really like their designs. Even test drove an LC500 yesterday (spoiler alert: They're not remotely worth asking price at 60k used, yet alone 100k new). When the M's act up, which is actually kind of rare to be honest, I know I have a daily that is more or less indestructible.

I think a Japanese and German car combo is absolutely the way to go
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      08-11-2020, 08:28 AM   #233
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I think i'm a combination of the two. I have a 1982 911 that I am mid resto on that I plan on keeping for the rest of my life, but I change up my daily every few years. In the past 10 years, I have owned and daily driven an E36 M3, LS6 E36 M3, S50 E30, E82 135, e70 X5 4.8,Supercharged E92 M3, E46 M3 and now looking to get into an F80. I chase the newer cars for the features, power, and comfort.
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      08-11-2020, 04:59 PM   #234
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Since the 1950s, car have been viewed as "disposable". Back in the 1950s and 1960s, people kept their cars for 2 to 4 years as cars weren't overly reliable and were considered done by 100K miles. These days, people in the US keep their cars 7 to 9 years.

Cars are no doubt more complex, expensive, and difficult to work on, but they are also immensely more reliable overall. Heavy reliance on electronics in cars is a double edge sword for a number of reasons. Electronics will certainly make maintaining a current gen car hard for decades on end, especially cars that have systems that require coding with changing out parts (I'm talking to you BMW, Benz, Audi/VW, Porsche).

I absolutely love my M235 and intentionally ordered it without nav or a moonroof. I wanted the least tech possible and if I could have got it without electronic shocks, I would have done that as well. I would love to keep my M235 for a good long time (4.5 years and counting now), but I do worry that 10 years from now it will be hard to find a shop with the necessary equipment to talk to the DME. Also, automakers only need to make parts for model for 10 years. After that, they don't have to make anything.

Undoubtedly there are and will be more and more specialized companies that will be able to make/fix hard to find parts, program ECUs, etc. but it will take legwork from the owner. The same goes for the owner of a rare vintage car, the difference being they're trying to source rare mechanical parts.

I grew up in the 1990s. I appreciate some tech, but value connection even more. I also appreciate reliability. What will likely happen for me is I'll buy a used later year Lexus ISF (5.0 liter, 416hp, poser-M3 with a ton of reliability) and then supplement it with something like a 1st gen NSX or do up an ND Miata for street/track use. I like going fast, but I want something I can use often without it trying to kill me.
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      08-11-2020, 09:36 PM   #235
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Precisely. That's why I daily a Toyota Tundra, would consider Lexus cars too, I happen to really like their designs. Even test drove an LC500 yesterday (spoiler alert: They're not remotely worth asking price at 60k used, yet alone 100k new). When the M's act up, which is actually kind of rare to be honest, I know I have a daily that is more or less indestructible.

I think a Japanese and German car combo is absolutely the way to go
I just enjoy a driver's car so much that I have to drive one daily lol, and Japan just doesn't offer anything worthwhile besides maybe the Supra which may end up having BMW reliability.

The LC seems super impressive, and I also saw them popping up used $60k which seems like a great deal for such a car. Why didn't you like it? It seems like a great cruiser but not a driver's car.
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      08-12-2020, 06:40 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Since the 1950s, car have been viewed as "disposable". Back in the 1950s and 1960s, people kept their cars for 2 to 4 years as cars weren't overly reliable and were considered done by 100K miles. These days, people in the US keep their cars 7 to 9 years.

Cars are no doubt more complex, expensive, and difficult to work on, but they are also immensely more reliable overall. Heavy reliance on electronics in cars is a double edge sword for a number of reasons. Electronics will certainly make maintaining a current gen car hard for decades on end, especially cars that have systems that require coding with changing out parts (I'm talking to you BMW, Benz, Audi/VW, Porsche).

I absolutely love my M235 and intentionally ordered it without nav or a moonroof. I wanted the least tech possible and if I could have got it without electronic shocks, I would have done that as well. I would love to keep my M235 for a good long time (4.5 years and counting now), but I do worry that 10 years from now it will be hard to find a shop with the necessary equipment to talk to the DME. Also, automakers only need to make parts for model for 10 years. After that, they don't have to make anything.

Undoubtedly there are and will be more and more specialized companies that will be able to make/fix hard to find parts, program ECUs, etc. but it will take legwork from the owner. The same goes for the owner of a rare vintage car, the difference being they're trying to source rare mechanical parts.

I grew up in the 1990s. I appreciate some tech, but value connection even more. I also appreciate reliability. What will likely happen for me is I'll buy a used later year Lexus ISF (5.0 liter, 416hp, poser-M3 with a ton of reliability) and then supplement it with something like a 1st gen NSX or do up an ND Miata for street/track use. I like going fast, but I want something I can use often without it trying to kill me.
You nailed it on the head. I think we've gone past the point where I consider cars reasonable to own out of warranty personally. The golden age was between 2005 and 2015 IMO. Mechanically sound, but not too many tech stuff to go bad, such as self driving ect...

I've also looked into Lexus V8 products and find them very nice (although I still prefer my S65 powered vehicle, see below). I've driven a first gen NSX but I think there are way way way overpriced currently.

Unfortunately (or fortunately? ), the list of cars I want to add is getting smaller everyday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I just enjoy a driver's car so much that I have to drive one daily lol, and Japan just doesn't offer anything worthwhile besides maybe the Supra which may end up having BMW reliability.

The LC seems super impressive, and I also saw them popping up used $60k which seems like a great deal for such a car. Why didn't you like it? It seems like a great cruiser but not a driver's car.
It's not that I didn't like the LC500, it's just that I could never justify the price for that car, even used.

The interior and exterior is extremely impressive, far more interesting than most cars out there. Exhaust noise was also pretty damn loud for a stock car which I found surprising for a Lexus. The car I drove was a 2018, so it rides harder than the 2021 models, and this one also had 21" wheels. The handling was OK, but you could tell it was a GT.

While I've said in many threads I don't need 600 hp to have fun, this car just felt lacking in performance. 4400 lbs, and "only" 471 hp. This felt more like an E39 M5, which is not a bad thing, but I still prefer my E92 M3 to it in terms of driving experience. Car just feels a generation or 2 behind. I think that car would be a good buy more at $30k. Transmission was also not as sharp as an 8ZF.
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      08-12-2020, 04:33 PM   #237
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I have been eyeing the LC500 to replace my F80 as well. All the reviews of it have been stellar saying its better than an aston at a fraction of the cost. Once my GT3 comes in I might make that move.

I need to drive one and see how it feels. 4400 lbs and 390whp is going to feel ALOT slower than a F80 M3. hopefully the ride quality and steering can make up for it. The car looks great imo. i'd like to pick one up in a year or so when they are in the 50s

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      08-12-2020, 04:48 PM   #238
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I have been eyeing the LC500 to replace my F80 as well. All the reviews of it have been stellar saying its better than an aston at a fraction of the cost. Once my GT3 comes in I might make that move.

I need to drive one and see how it feels. 4400 lbs and 390whp is going to feel ALOT slower than a F80 M3. hopefully the ride quality and steering can make up for it. The car looks great imo. i'd like to pick one up in a year or so when they are in the 50s

Its a great car, however its definitely not better than an Aston, well at least the older ones, the new Vantage is pretty bad in my opinion. It has the luxury and sound of an old aston though, I will give it that.
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      08-12-2020, 07:24 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by baege View Post
you've nailed exactly where I've landed as an enthusiast, a newer and tighter reliable car for the more regular use and a manual normally aspirated keeper car in the background (in my case an r8 v0 6mt, which I am still on the hunt for)
I’m drooling for a 6spd v10 r8. Preferably a vert. That’s my ultimate dream car and hope to get one within the next 5 years
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      08-12-2020, 08:47 PM   #240
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Just configured a Boxster S online out of curiosity. PDK + Premium Pkg and slightly nicer wheels = $87,000.

These cars just keep getting more expensive, it's absurd. I remember when the 987 came out around 2013 they were significantly cheaper.

I may have to back track on that "never used German car again" mantra earlier. New Porsches besides the Macan have gotten way too expensive. May as well shell out the $60k for a 997/early 991 that won't lose much more value rather than burning over $2000/mo to lease a new 911 Carrera S.
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      08-12-2020, 08:49 PM   #241
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New Porsches besides the Macan have gotten way too expensive.
I wouldn't call the Macan a value either but yes, GTS4.0 pricing was really disappointing , close to $100k! That's GT4 territory. Porsche CPO seems the way to go.
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      08-12-2020, 08:53 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
I wouldn't call the Macan a value either but yes, GTS4.0 pricing was really disappointing , close to $100k! That's GT4 territory. Porsche CPO seems the way to go.
Yeah I would never get into a Macan GTS or Turbo. That's too much money for a compact CUV lol. Macan S kinda tops out at $75k which is already pushing it. X3M is definitely better value.
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