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      04-17-2019, 12:26 AM   #1
eggman51
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Guidance on brakes - my intended product is not in stock for months

Hey Folks,

I thought I had a plan for servicing my brakes sorted as prep for some upcoming track days. My brakes definitely need to be serviced before I will be comfortable driving the car on the track. I'm booked for 4 consecutive track days in mid June and don't want to miss that.

I was going to order ECS Tuning 2 piece rotors with Hawk HPS 5.0 pads for both front and rear. I had also ordered a caliper rebuild kit for all 4 corners and stainless steel brake lines - so these costs start to add up.

However, after placing the order for a couple of weeks now, it turns out the front rotors are not available until August.

My options appear to be:
1. Use OEM / Zimmerman rotors - less than I was planning to spend on the ECS product
2. A BBK, likely the Racing Brake kit - about 3 times what I was planning to spend
3. Something else I have not considered

I can always upgrade to a BBK later is certainly one thought - but the cost of a 4 corner brake refresh with the OEM product is not exactly cheap, also factoring labour (I don't have the time / skills to do this brake upgrade).

I absolutely love good brakes having driven formula cars as a young man. I am nowhere near as good a driver as the Z4 M can handle, so this is not about extracting performance as much as it is about having some lovely brakes to stand on

Any guidance much appreciated.

Cheers,
Eamonn aka eggman
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      04-17-2019, 06:30 AM   #2
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Those HPS pads won’t last more than 2 track days if that... get a real track pad

I personally would avoid any ECS in house built stuff. Get OEM rotors from FCP Euro, yes OEM is expensive but FCP has lifetime replacement policy for even wear n tear items.
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      04-17-2019, 08:02 AM   #3
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Get in touch with BMW Parts Pro, they are a sponsor here and they have the lowest prices for OEM brake rotors that I have found

as for pads, I will always be the one to be adament you go dual pads, anything that can handle track heat will be dreadful on the street with the pig squeal.

Hawk DTC is amazing for track use and will handle extended sessions, but its absolutely horrid for dust and eats rotors for breakfast.
I have heard good things from everyone that has used G-loc, maybe look into those pads
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      04-17-2019, 10:23 AM   #4
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Good advice from 3002Tii and I would 100% recommend FCP as well. Their service and lifetime warranty, even on consumables, is unmatched.

OEM brakes are more than enough when combined with proper track pads and 600+ fluid.

If you want a very capable and reliable setup, I would do the following and all from FCP with Lifetime replacement:
- New OEM Rotors (if needed)
- HAWK DTC 60 (better modulation with less initial bite) - I prefer DTC 70 but also have some aero & brake late
- Brass Sliders
- Motul 660 fluid
- Stainless Lines (not sure if FCP has these)

Good luck and have fun!
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      04-17-2019, 05:34 PM   #5
eggman51
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Awesome advice - should have asked earlier!

It turns out the notification that ECS sent me a couple of days ago was an error - they have since fixed it and the order will ship out today. I *did* buy ECS in house manufactured rotors - perhaps that was a mistake, but I will live and learn (again - shoulda asked here first).

I will also look at FCP more in the future, their site seems usable and selection and prices seem very good.

Great to know about the HPS 5.0 pads and track usage - I had wondered about this. I will do some research on pads so I understand what I am getting into - thank you for the pointers. I have 4 days in a row as my first track session of the year (and ever in this car), so I was planning to bring a set of pads just in case. Seems like it's a must.

Seems like I need to get used to changing brake pads (or pig squealing).

Also good to know about Motul 600 - glad you are recommending a DOT 4 fluid, seems better for mixed street and track usage versus a DOT 5 fluid?

I am putting stainless lines on.

What are "brass sliders" ?

Is it these:
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-part...003326ecs01~a/

...if so, I did purchase both axles worth of bushings and will have the caliper bushings replaced.

THANKS AGAIN!

Cheers,
Eamonn aka eggman
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      04-26-2019, 01:39 AM   #6
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tyvm for the inputs folks,

What about Ferodo 2500s for street and track usage?

I am advised by my local motorsports shop that the DTC pads from Hawk are frequently used as 60s on the rear and 70s in the front and mostly as a pure race pad, not great for street.

He recommends the Ferodo 2500s for track / street and for 4 days of lapping consider bringing a spare set of fronts.
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      04-26-2019, 08:20 AM   #7
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Re DTC 60/70, that is correct, definitely not good for street use and a lot of e46 folks mix the pad compounds as you described. Do not personally know of anyone using Ferodo.

If you do not want to swap pads for the track, then some sort of mixed compound like the Hawk HP+ or the Ferodo 2500 will have to be it. Based on the below data, it seems like the Ferodo has a similar bite to OEM but is capable of sustaining it at higher temperatures for less fade.

Here are two Mu vs Temperature charts that may help you make your decision (700*C = 1292*F):

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      04-28-2019, 08:18 AM   #8
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Thanks. I've already got the Hawk HPS 5.0, and I've ordered a set of Ferodo 2500s, including a spare set of fronts.
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      05-02-2019, 08:14 AM   #9
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Stock rotors/calipers get my thumbs up as well. I ran brass sliders for a season, you do need to clean them before every event as debris buildup occurs. Just a simple clean and regrease with best quality grease you can find will keep them golden.
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      05-08-2019, 03:43 AM   #10
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There's a good chance the Hawk Street/Race aren't going to be enough pad for you depending on the track you run and how demanding it is on brakes. Will also depend on what tires you run and how much grip you've got with them.
With my 3.0si just AX prepped (struts/shocks, front sway) and running 245/40 front, 265/35 rear the HP+ were just adequate on the track (Daytona, Sebring). The car was pushy enough that corner exit speeds were down and end of straight speeds were such that the HP+ would fade a bit but were still working. A bit of aero (APR front splitter), and a bit more rubber (265/35 front, 275/35 rear) fixed the push, made the car nicely balanced and significantly increased speeds.
HP+ weren't able to take more than about 5 minutes into the first session before temps were over their limits, Street/Race made it a full 15 minutes into the first session before they were beyond their limit, and now I'm running DTC-60s which have been great from a performance standpoint. Rotors get changed with every pad set as they're usually at or near minimum thickness around the time the pads are worn out. The combination of dust and rotor material mixed in is hideous and leaves rust stains on the wheels, but they work really well.
I actually street drive with the DTC-60 and for here in FLA they're usable since we don't get much cold weather. First stop of the day they're a bit slippery, but once you're rolling they're fine. I suspect in a northern winter at colder temps they'd be problematic, but probably fine for summer usage.
I had one set of the Ferodo DS2500 before the tires and aero change, and I liked their feel. The only issue I had was the cup springs that hold the inner pad into the caliper piston weren't formed correctly and the pads would work out of the piston and push it back a bit. The first stop after rolling a bit gave a long brake pedal, which was annoying on the street, pretty damn scary on the track. Haven't tried another set yet.
Car is 2006 3.0si roadster.
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      05-23-2019, 07:51 AM   #11
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Have you tested out the Ferodo 2500 yet? I’ve been thinking about stepping down to something more mild from PFC 08’s to save time on pad swaps.
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      05-23-2019, 12:04 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 tii View Post
Have you tested out the Ferodo 2500 yet? I’ve been thinking about stepping down to something more mild from PFC 08’s to save time on pad swaps.
Not yet, about 3 weeks before my first track day with the Ferodos.

I am swapping out the Hawk HPS 5.0 pads and will use the Ferodos on the street for a couple of weeks. Once I use the 2500s on the track I can report back my experience with them.

The Hawk HPS 5.0 seem a decent street pad. Seem low dust and low noise, performance is acceptably adequate, though I've not had much occasion to really stand on them. However, many people advised me these would not last for a track day.

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      05-28-2019, 02:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 tii View Post
Those HPS pads won't last more than 2 track days if that... get a real track pad

I personally would avoid any ECS in house built stuff. Get OEM rotors from FCP Euro, yes OEM is expensive but FCP has lifetime replacement policy for even wear n tear items.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 tii View Post
Those HPS pads won't last more than 2 track days if that... get a real track pad

I personally would avoid any ECS in house built stuff. Get OEM rotors from FCP Euro, yes OEM is expensive but FCP has lifetime replacement policy for even wear n tear items.
Why the advice against ECS assembled brake kit? I've been looking into these as well (front & rear).
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      06-02-2019, 08:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekla View Post
Why the advice against ECS assembled brake kit? I've been looking into these as well (front & rear).
I am curious about this as well. They seem to be working fine for me, though I have not had them on the track yet. These were the only 2 piece rotor set I could find with replaceable rotors without having to jump up to the cost of aftermarket brakes or BBKs.
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      06-02-2019, 10:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eggman51 View Post
Not yet, about 3 weeks before my first track day with the Ferodos.

I am swapping out the Hawk HPS 5.0 pads and will use the Ferodos on the street for a couple of weeks. Once I use the 2500s on the track I can report back my experience with them.

The Hawk HPS 5.0 seem a decent street pad. Seem low dust and low noise, performance is acceptably adequate, though I've not had much occasion to really stand on them. However, many people advised me these would not last for a track day.

Cheers,
Eamonn aka eggman
You definitely have not put them to any test yet. In fact if you have no squeal with those pads they may not even be bedded in.
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      06-17-2019, 08:55 PM   #16
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It turns out the notification that ECS sent me a couple of days ago was an error - they have since fixed it and the order will ship out today. I *did* buy ECS in house manufactured rotors - perhaps that was a mistake, but I will live and learn (again - shoulda asked here first).

OP-

fyi-I have those rotors(2 piece), zero problems, and they are wearing well.
Not a big fan of ecs, but give credit where credit is due.:-)
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      06-20-2019, 08:32 PM   #17
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I did my 4 track days in a row. Such a blast!

I got down to reasonable lap times and I think some of that is my comfort with braking much later than people who don't have previous track experience.

I didn't use the HPS 5 on the track. I went with Ferodo DS2500s. The fronts lasted 2 days. The rears lasted 4 days. I kept DSC on and I think that caused significant rear brake wear. Next time out I will turn off DSC.

I don't like the brake set up or pedal feel.

I can completely understand now what you guys mean about track pad vs street pad swap outs being a must. I had to change pads at the track and it's pretty straightforward.

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      06-27-2019, 10:22 PM   #18
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I ordered an AP Racking BBK from Essex, the ones based on the Radi-Cal Pro 5000R calipers and J Groove discs.

I will keep the rears stock, though I am using the ECS Tuning 2 piece rear rotors.

I will run Ferodo DS1.11 pads on the fronts, and DS2500s on the rears for the track, then swap out the DS1.11 fronts for DS2500s for street usage. I figure if I keep some "trackable" pads as my street pads, in a pinch I can use them on the track. I'm not married to Ferodos, just there is a local racer supply shop that stocks them and I like to support local where I can.

It turns out that I experienced what felt like knockback, but was actually an issue with the DS2500 fitting into the front caliper(s??). Some folks here had a thread about it, and that is what helped figure it out. When I put the Hawk HPS 5.0 pads back on, the brakes feel good for street usage.

For me, the stock BMW Z4M brakes are not adequate for this car and how I drive on the track. I will run the AP Racing BBK on the track in about 10 days.

I may one day swap out the rear brakes for an AP Racing BBK, but that would really be more about convenience for pad changing and aesthetics than a performance gain worth the cost. But uh... those J Groove discs and nice calipers would look good front and rear

Thanks for the guidance, and the thread that helped sort out why my brakes were shite. This community is an invaluable Z4 owner resource.

Cheers,
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      07-05-2019, 11:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eggman51 View Post
For me, the stock BMW Z4M brakes are not adequate for this car and how I drive on the track. I will run the AP Racing BBK on the track in about 10 days.
I found Bimmerworld's PFC "Direct Drive" package with PFC11 to be a nice compromise between stock rotors and a fixed caliper based BBK. Let us know how you like the AP racing setup, DutchRingRacing on youtube runs it at the N-ring and seems to do well.

If you're hard on brakes, get brake ducts ASAP. It's a bit of a pain to do right on Z4M, but the difference in rotor temps is profound. Otherwise, the BBK will only delay overheated rotors and pads, rather than preventing completely.
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      07-06-2019, 12:30 AM   #20
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Tracking the car this weekend, first time out on the AP Racing front BBK. Have DS1.11 for the AP fronts, and DS2500s for the stock rear calipers.

Definitely hear you on the ducting / cooling. Seems like a cheap / time consuming / extremely worthwhile mod. I wish someone made something, can't imagine it being too pricey, and I tend to have limited time.
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      07-06-2019, 06:10 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eggman51 View Post
Tracking the car this weekend, first time out on the AP Racing front BBK. Have DS1.11 for the AP fronts, and DS2500s for the stock rear calipers.

Definitely hear you on the ducting / cooling. Seems like a cheap / time consuming / extremely worthwhile mod. I wish someone made something, can't imagine it being too pricey, and I tend to have limited time.
Congrats on the AP Kit, very nice setup!

Get in touch with Westersund he's just wrapping up a nice 3D printed kit that reuses the the original brake duct location.
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      07-07-2019, 01:24 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azeka1 View Post
Congrats on the AP Kit, very nice setup!

Get in touch with Westersund he's just wrapping up a nice 3D printed kit that reuses the the original brake duct location.
Thanks for the mention. The brake ducts have been ready for a month but the laser cutting company have been swamped as of late, I will swing by the upcoming week and see if the brackets are done.
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