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      04-02-2020, 05:36 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by jimbobiggens View Post
I never heard of that - can you elaborate, which translation?
Unfortunately, not much. It was from a course, "The Old Testament as Literature", I took long ago, taught by a Rabbi. He was very proud that he used an old (oldest?) translation.
The conflicting stories are very short, both in the start of Genesis. Later 'official' translations cleaned up this disagreement and others.

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      04-02-2020, 06:30 AM   #178
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Oh, OK. Are you talking about the differences between the Masoretic (sp?) text and the Septuagint? (pretty sure I spelled that right) I think there were more variations than that, I don't remember the names though. The languages are thousands of years apart and the consonants changed over that time.

This is a halfway decent article about this.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/contro...#ixzz31uFPqDC8
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      04-02-2020, 06:44 AM   #179
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This really speaks to de-escalation of conflict and transitions to having a pacific and charitable heart.

Prior to the, 'Eye-for-an Eye..." edict, if you insulted me or hurt me, my village would come and kill everyone in your village, or vice-versa to avenge the wrong that was done to me/you. The Eye/Tooth edict was a plea for mercy to NOT hurt anyone beyond the hurt that was done to the aggrieved party. The addition, turn the other cheek and offer him your cloak speak of having a very pacific view towards your assailant and not fighting back and finally, "give him your cloak," speaks of offering charity to all...even though they may have harmed you and yours.

De-escallation of violence to Peaceful to Charitable. All making the case for more civilized and kind behavior towards one another.

And I think that regardless of religion, if everyone simply remembers, "The spirit of GOD lives in all men so that they may know right from wrong.,"Love thy neighbor as thyself", 90 percent of the world's problems would immediately fall away.
You are correct and thank you for the refresher as it has been a long time. My point was that I believe the bible should be taken not as always literal but with an open view. And that there are likely several passages that support a wise and merciful god and that he would welcome souls who lived a decent life, who recognized right from wrong and who repented when they sinned. I don't believe that you have to worship in one church and only one church in a certain way to get welcomed into heaven. I think that god would care more about your character rather than your membership and what collection plate you put your shekels in.

I used the turn the other cheek reference to support that view might be used to view folks who worshiped differently or at another church so that we might accept one another more openly rather than the us and them mentality that seems to be held out by so many when it comes to religion.

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      04-02-2020, 07:42 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Murf993 View Post
You are correct and thank you for the refresher as it has been a long time. My point was that I believe the bible should be taken not as always literal but with an open view. And that there are likely several passages that support a wise and merciful god and that he would welcome souls who lived a decent life, who recognized right from wrong and who repented when they sinned. I don't believe that you have to worship in one church and only one church in a certain way to get welcomed into heaven. I think that god would care more about your character rather than your membership and what collection plate you put your shekels in.

I used the turn the other cheek reference to support that view might be used to view folks who worshiped differently or at another church so that we might accept one another more openly rather than the us and them mentality that seems to be held out by so many when it comes to religion.

jim
No worries. We all increase in our personal knowledge when we all share. Growing up I was very Catholic-centric though by father is a protestant...Baptist. Growing up me it was simply Catholic and "blah blah blah everything else until a teacher in junior high enjoined me to really study other religions. I came to look for the good in other religions rather than the bad. My previous attitude was dangerous and the root of conflict.

When the Catholic church really fought against the pedophile priest issue I and lots of other Catholics stopped funding the church. When cardinals gave us Pope Nazi I almost converted. This Pope is straightening things out and reaching out his hands in love to the other religions. This is the way things should be in religion. We all need to work until the term, "religious war" becomes an oxymoron and not a description of war.

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      04-02-2020, 07:51 AM   #181
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No worries. We all increase in our personal knowledge when we all share. Growing up I was very Catholic-centric though by father is a protestant...Baptist. Growing up me it was simply Catholic and "blah blah blah everything else until a teacher in junior high enjoined me to really study other religions. I came to look for the good in other religions rather than the My previous attitude was dangerous and the root of conflict.

When the Catholic church really fought against the pedophile priest issue I and lots of other Catholics stopped funding the church. When cardinals gave us Pope Nazi I almost converted. This Pope is straightening things out and reaching out his hands in love to the other religions. This is the way things should be in religion. We all need to work until the term, "religious war" becomes an oxymoron and not a description of war.

Cheers-mk
My father rest his soul was raised strict Irish catholic in a very poor part of Toronto. His mother died when he was young and his father was fighting in WWII in Italy so he (and his brother and sister) were adopted by his paternal grandmother who was also raising 3 of his other cousins in a storefront converted to an apartment. Literally across the street from the tracks. His grandmother went to the church for help to feed all of these children and they offered her a loan at the current bank interest rates. That put dad off. When he met my mother, english protestant he converted. He had the catholic mindset through his whole life and I think that was a good thing. He believed and pushed the Golden Rule on us all, but he also had hustled pool in a very rough neighbourhood so wasn't always about turning the other cheek. He gave us all a healthy respect for religion but also told us to ask questions and to keep an open mind. On his deathbed I had the hospital priest attend and give him his last rights. I miss my dad.
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      04-02-2020, 07:58 AM   #182
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My father rest his soul was raised strict Irish catholic in a very poor part of Toronto. His mother died when he was young and his father was fighting in WWII in Italy so he (and his brother and sister) were adopted by his paternal grandmother who was also raising 3 of his other cousins in a storefront converted to an apartment. Literally across the street from the tracks. His grandmother went to the church for help to feed all of these children and they offered her a loan at the current bank interest rates. That put dad off. When he met my mother, english protestant he converted. He had the catholic mindset through his whole life and I think that was a good thing. He believed and pushed the Golden Rule on us all, but he also had hustled pool in a very rough neighbourhood so wasn't always about turning the other cheek. He gave us all a healthy respect for religion but also told us to ask questions and to keep an open mind. On his deathbed I had the hospital priest attend and give him his last rights. I miss my dad.
Sounds like he was a good man. I'm really sorry for your loss. My dad is 88 and had a couple of health scares in the last year. So happy to still have him here.
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      04-02-2020, 08:02 AM   #183
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Sounds like he was a good man. I'm really sorry for your loss. My dad is 88 and had a couple of health scares in the last year. So happy to still have him here.
He was one of the finest people I've ever known. I hope to be half the man he was. He didn't live terribly healthy, ate unhealthy and smoked. It was how he grew up and generational frankly. He had a huge stroke at 59, tough as nails he pushed through it, learned to walk and talk again. He died at 69, that was 15 years ago and it sometimes seems like yesterday.

Thank you for your kind words. Give your dad a call, and what happened with "the one that got away"?
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      04-02-2020, 08:15 AM   #184
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If there is a Heaven and a Hell then why is there only one book depicting the story of god and the heavens? Yes there are mentions of hell and whatnot but not a whole book about it. Where's the devils book?

I've often wondered if maybe the world we live in is actual hell and we have a chance for redemption if we can live a good, honest life. But the hard truth is probably that after death there is nothing. A lot of people need things to believe in and to look forward to in order to get through their daily lives so maybe the idea of Heaven is just some peoples vice. Kind of like any obsession, addiction, hobby whatever you want to call them, it helps people cope on a daily basis.

Seems to me since the dawn of time things have been made to try and divide society. Heaven and Hell right? Good and evil, wealthy and impoverished, black and white, democrat and republican etc.

But hey, I think the whole world can be united in saying that Pizza is awesome so that's cool
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      04-02-2020, 09:07 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Murf993 View Post
He was one of the finest people I've ever known. I hope to be half the man he was. He didn't live terribly healthy, ate unhealthy and smoked. It was how he grew up and generational frankly. He had a huge stroke at 59, tough as nails he pushed through it, learned to walk and talk again. He died at 69, that was 15 years ago and it sometimes seems like yesterday.

Thank you for your kind words. Give your dad a call, and what happened with "the one that got away"?
You're welcome. And that's the same thing I say about my dad. I carry his name so I'm especially careful with everything. I speak with him every day.

I'm still searching but the COVID-9 situation has me on the back foot and little time to do any serious research. I appreciate you asking.
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      04-02-2020, 09:43 AM   #186
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Quote:
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Oh, OK. Are you talking about the differences between the Masoretic (sp?) text and the Septuagint? (pretty sure I spelled that right) I think there were more variations than that, I don't remember the names though. The languages are thousands of years apart and the consonants changed over that time.

This is a halfway decent article about this.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/contro...#ixzz31uFPqDC8
Yes, this is the field of study, but I took the course in the 1970's. I remember no names of the sects, & don't remember the differences in the stories enough to speak to them! I think two of the differences were with the primordial ferment, and the origin of Eve.

Thanks for the link!

Murf
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      04-02-2020, 10:29 AM   #187
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And I think that regardless of religion, if everyone simply remembers, "The spirit of GOD lives in all men so that they may know right from wrong.,"Love thy neighbor as thyself", 90 percent of the world's problems would immediately fall away.[/QUOTE]

That's not true. You can't say that every human has holy spirit, you receive the holy spirit when you full believe in God and repent your sins to him. If every human would have holy Spirit the world would be completely different. God lives in the people that summited there lives to him, that's why Paul says our body is the temple were God lives, God life's in those people that follow him, and the people that fallow him do have the holy spirit. Yes we fall, we sin but we get up and repent our sin to Jesus and throw Jesus Christ God forgives us.
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      04-02-2020, 11:18 AM   #188
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And I think that regardless of religion, if everyone simply remembers, "The spirit of GOD lives in all men so that they may know right from wrong.,"Love thy neighbor as thyself", 90 percent of the world's problems would immediately fall away.
That's not true. You can't say that every human has holy spirit, you receive the holy spirit when you full believe in God and repent your sins to him. If every human would have holy Spirit the world would be completely different. God lives in the people that summited there lives to him, that's why Paul says our body is the temple were God lives, God life's in those people that follow him, and the people that fallow him do have the holy spirit. Yes we fall, we sin but we get up and repent our sin to Jesus and throw Jesus Christ God forgives us.[/QUOTE]

You probably need to read again.

And never forget free will. Having God's spirit doesn't override your free will.
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      04-02-2020, 01:14 PM   #189
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That's not true. You can't say that every human has holy spirit, you receive the holy spirit when you full believe in God and repent your sins to him. If every human would have holy Spirit the world would be completely different. God lives in the people that summited there lives to him, that's why Paul says our body is the temple were God lives, God life's in those people that follow him, and the people that fallow him do have the holy spirit. Yes we fall, we sin but we get up and repent our sin to Jesus and throw Jesus Christ God forgives us.
You probably need to read again.

And never forget free will. Having God's spirit doesn't override your free will.[/QUOTE]

I think you should study the Bible a bit more. There is a time when you receive the holy spirit. And you should study and understand yourself when that happens. And your totally wrong that every human has it, to receive holy spirit as the Bible teaches, you must repent your sins and get baptized. To repent of your sins, you must confess them to God and turn away from your old life, and dedicating yourself to follow God's will.
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      04-02-2020, 01:26 PM   #190
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I think you 2 are arguing the same side. Iant that what he just said?
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      04-02-2020, 01:29 PM   #191
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... to receive holy spirit as the Bible teaches, you must repent your sins and get baptized. To repent of your sins, you must confess them to God and turn away from your old life, and dedicating yourself to follow God's will.
I have a very hard time understanding why Americans, and people from other democracies, who have shed so much blood & money defending democracy, would kowtow to authoritarian religious organizations.

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      04-02-2020, 06:08 PM   #192
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Yes, this is the field of study, but I took the course in the 1970's. I remember no names of the sects, & don't remember the differences in the stories enough to speak to them! I think two of the differences were with the primordial ferment, and the origin of Eve.

Thanks for the link!

Murf
70's! I thought I had a pretty good memory with my recollections from 80's Pastoral Theology classes. Hats off to you sir!
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      04-02-2020, 08:37 PM   #193
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I think you 2 are arguing the same side. Iant that what he just said?
Maybe we are haha.
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      04-04-2020, 10:16 PM   #194
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God is certainly moving the shells around.

People idolized sports - we have none
People idolized musicians - no concerts
People idolize actors and movies - that's on hold
People idolize money - that's leaving at a rapid rate

I urge you all that think the Bible is made up, fake, fiction or whatever to take a closer look. Not because I think the time is near but because once you find the grace and love of Jesus your life will forever be changed.

In the end everyone will bow before him regardless of where your heart is today. Unfortunately it will be too late.

God bless you all!
i cant believe how many likes your post has. i had no idea there were this many crazies on here.
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      04-04-2020, 10:44 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuckle View Post
God is certainly moving the shells around.

People idolized sports - we have none
People idolized musicians - no concerts
People idolize actors and movies - that's on hold
People idolize money - that's leaving at a rapid rate

I urge you all that think the Bible is made up, fake, fiction or whatever to take a closer look. Not because I think the time is near but because once you find the grace and love of Jesus your life will forever be changed.

In the end everyone will bow before him regardless of where your heart is today. Unfortunately it will be too late.

God bless you all!
i cant believe how many likes your post has. i had no idea there were this many crazies on here.
Thanks! We all love you.
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      04-08-2020, 12:13 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuckle View Post
God is certainly moving the shells around.

People idolized sports - we have none
People idolized musicians - no concerts
People idolize actors and movies - that's on hold
People idolize money - that's leaving at a rapid rate

I urge you all that think the Bible is made up, fake, fiction or whatever to take a closer look. Not because I think the time is near but because once you find the grace and love of Jesus your life will forever be changed.

In the end everyone will bow before him regardless of where your heart is today. Unfortunately it will be too late.

God bless you all!
Thank you so much! God bless you too. I am currently at university and writing an essay on Disobedience, including Civil Disobedience. I reveal this theme through biblical stories, through the story in Eden that happened between Adam and Eve. I found some valuable information here. People have said that “obedience is a virtue and that disobedience is a vice,” for centuries. History of the humankind was started by an act of disobedience and it is not very unlikely that it will end by an act of obedience. I was very interested in the topic, so I started writing an essay on the origin of morality. What do you think about this?

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