Big Bore Throttle Body

[3GFX]

Hey All...looking at some inexpensive upgrade options for the e85 3.0i and I've stumbled across this thread:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=403780

Essentially claiming the an E39 540i throttle body would fit similarly onto the M54B30.

There's the DINAN part, yes, but going OEM+ would be nice and cheaper.

Thoughts and knowledge please?!

[3GFX]

Still scanning the net...found a throttle body shop...half the price of DINAN.

http://www.westcoastriots.com/

[WickedNy]

Interested in this too but for the n52, has no information on the bore size increase and haven't really heard of them before, at least Dinan is reputable...please post if you come across any info

[Westersund]

Isn't the S54 throttle bodies a bolt-on on the M54 head? Maybe harder to find instead of a 540i throttle body though. I know S54 throttle bodies are common to put on M54's in racing cars in Sweden.

[Steeler]

Do your homework before buying a BBTB. Without the supporting mods ie. more air in more air out I doubt there will any noticeable improvement in real numbers.
There are lots of threads on this topic on other E46 sites.

[pokeybritches]

Originally Posted by dbarton62

Do your homework before buying a BBTB. Without the supporting mods ie. more air in more air out I doubt there will any noticeable improvement in real numbers.
There are lots of threads on this topic on other E46 sites.

Agreed.

I think the ITB setup is a significant modification and would require custom tuning.

[dc_wright]

Originally Posted by WickedNy

Interested in this too but for the n52, has no information on the bore size increase and haven't really heard of them before, at least Dinan is reputable...please post if you come across any info

If you check in the E36 and E46 forums you should find some posts from people that have installed the Riot Racing M50 or M52 BBTB. Reviews are positive if I remember correctly.

[WickedNy]

Info appreciated, ...plan on getting aa tune this spring after I purchase ss headers, figured this would be a minor hp gain mod, but if the cost/benefit isn't worth it I'll pass

[3002 tii]

For the n52, Dinan is the only real PnP option. ITB will require tuning and won't be cheap.

[dc_wright]

Originally Posted by Westersund

Isn't the S54 throttle bodies a bolt-on on the M54 head? Maybe harder to find instead of a 540i throttle body though. I know S54 throttle bodies are common to put on M54's in racing cars in Sweden.

The S54 ITBs are bolt on the the M54 head, then for a track only car you run an Alpha-N tune which uses RPM and TPS position for the air fuel mixture so you don't have to mess with the MAF or O2 sensor inputs.

Originally Posted by pokeybritches

Agreed.

I think the ITB setup is a significant modification and would require custom tuning.

Here's a thread on an ITB conversion on an M50. Not an insignificant undertaking. The video clip in post 18 is worth a listen if nothing else.

[GuidoK]

I don't think an e39 540i TB is the way to go because I don't think the connectors fit. (maybe there are different versions)
I think you need an n62 TB (so from an e60 545i and the sorts).
That has the same connector, and the internal resistance from the potentiometers is about the same (the ecu resets resistance parameters every time the car is started).
I have one here to test (you can get them for $30 on ebay so it is a very very cheap mod) but I have to machine a flange and adapt my twinscrew elbow for the size. It is much bigger, the m54 TB literally fits inside the n62TB

S54 ITB's will probably also require some inventive stuff regarding icv, vacuum etc etc.

[Steeler]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I don't think an e39 540i TB is the way to go because I don't think the connectors fit. (maybe there are different versions)
I think you need an n62 TB (so from an e60 545i and the sorts).
That has the same connector, and the internal resistance from the potentiometers is about the same (the ecu resets resistance parameters every time the car is started).
I have one here to test (you can get them for $30 on ebay so it is a very very cheap mod) but I have to machine a flange and adapt my twinscrew elbow for the size. It is much bigger, the m54 TB literally fits inside the n62TB

S54 ITB's will probably also require some inventive stuff regarding icv, vacuum etc etc.

Interesting Guido.
Would the larger TB not be limited by the inlet on the IM and how would the ICV be handled?
The increased air volume would require a retune??

[GuidoK]

ICV just sits in the regular place (both on a system with ess twinscrew and stock manifold I think?)
But there obviously has to come an adapterplate, and a larger rubber boot because the bolt spacing is larger and diameter too.
And if possible enlarge the inlet manifold diameter. On the ESS twinscrew elbow that is doable.
But the throttlebody is by far the smallest diameter in the inlet flow.
It's not only the diameter, but the area from the open valve/valve pin limits it too.

[GuidoK]

Hmmm I took some pictures and on the stock manifold it may cause some big problems:
(I'm really fast at dismanteling the manifold from the block....or it might have been sitting in a box )

The port from the ICV restricts the size:










The TB doesnt alow a lot of dremeling in that corner as the bottom O ring (for sealing) sits pretty close.
1 way might be to saw off that port and totally plug it off (with sealant or so, it's probably non glueable glass reinforced nylon) but that's a pretty rough job.

For the ESS TS2 kit it's probably very easy:






It fits on the normal elbow (it just clears the strut tower), and there is enough room to fit an adapterplate on the normal screw holes, and the screw holes are thus placed that grinding out the bore to the new TB diameter still leaves the original screw holes in tact for the adapterplate to fit on. (there is not enough room in the elbow to tap new holes to the new size).

The n62 TB is a lot bigger than the stock TB:

And it was only $30 (p&p included!), lots of them on ebay of course

And as I said: the old TB literally fits inside the new one



I haven't tested it yet but I'm pretty sure it's going to work (I have to make an adapter plate to test it because the TB does nothing with the engine not running.

So the easiest way to fit a larger TB is to fit a TS2 kit first

[Steeler]

lol
Too far into the vortech now Guido.
That TB is way bigger though!
The whole tract from the blower to the TB would need to be opened up accordingly to take advantage of that increased volume wouldn't it?... on mine not sure what the twin screw has after the blower.

[GuidoK]

Maybe with the vortech this is less important.
Afaik the big difference between a centrifugal style setup like the VF system and a twinscrew setup is that with the twinscrew the TB is located in front of the compressor and with the vortecht the TB is located after the compressor.
I'm not a thermal dynamist but my gut feeling says that although the same amount of air (as in amount of matter, the number of molecules) is going through the TB's (given a certain amount of boost at a certain RPM), it is of course compressed, so the volume passing through is less (which is analog to the speed of the gas passing through).
Obviously a dense gas will have more drag (energetically) than a less dense gas, but I don't think that will be a big limitation.

So I think limitations inflow on the inlet side of the compressor are much more important to get rid of than on the outlet side of the compressor. Also on the inlet side there is only 14psi to play with, so a 1psi drop due to restriction is 7% loss. If you have that on the outlet side at 6psi boost (so 20psi) the same psi drop is only 5% loss, so it's a little bit less.

But as far as cross section goes the TB is the limiting factor, compared to maf, filter etc.

[3GFX]

I'm just gonna start by saying....awesome! You are all the best for continuing with this topic!

Originally Posted by dc_wright

The S54 ITBs are bolt on the the M54 head, then for a track only car you run an Alpha-N tune which uses RPM and TPS position for the air fuel mixture so you don't have to mess with the MAF or O2 sensor inputs.



Here's a thread on an ITB conversion on an M50. Not an insignificant undertaking. The video clip in post 18 is worth a listen if nothing else.

ITBs would be a nice show and go setup. Less of a cost than a supercharger but then again would not get me the power I'd get out of that kit. I don't daily drive the car but I don't think ITBs would be good in my area where there can be sand (off the lake) and potential wet weather driving on occasion.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I don't think an e39 540i TB is the way to go because I don't think the connectors fit. (maybe there are different versions)
I think you need an n62 TB (so from an e60 545i and the sorts).
That has the same connector, and the internal resistance from the potentiometers is about the same (the ecu resets resistance parameters every time the car is started).
I have one here to test (you can get them for $30 on ebay so it is a very very cheap mod) but I have to machine a flange and adapt my twinscrew elbow for the size. It is much bigger, the m54 TB literally fits inside the n62TB

S54 ITB's will probably also require some inventive stuff regarding icv, vacuum etc etc.

Interesting concept, as well as the photos below. I toyed with the idea of just polishing the intake and outlet of the stock TB myself. But the e60 throttle body is just so massive. I'm leaning to the vortech kit and wonder if I could match those puppies up.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Maybe with the vortech this is less important.
Afaik the big difference between a centrifugal style setup like the VF system and a twinscrew setup is that with the twinscrew the TB is located in front of the compressor and with the vortecht the TB is located after the compressor.
I'm not a thermal dynamist but my gut feeling says that although the same amount of air (as in amount of matter, the number of molecules) is going through the TB's (given a certain amount of boost at a certain RPM), it is of course compressed, so the volume passing through is less (which is analog to the speed of the gas passing through).
Obviously a dense gas will have more drag (energetically) than a less dense gas, but I don't think that will be a big limitation.

So I think limitations inflow on the inlet side of the compressor are much more important to get rid of than on the outlet side of the compressor. Also on the inlet side there is only 14psi to play with, so a 1psi drop due to restriction is 7% loss. If you have that on the outlet side at 6psi boost (so 20psi) the same psi drop is only 5% loss, so it's a little bit less.

But as far as cross section goes the TB is the limiting factor, compared to maf, filter etc.

With the vortech system, would there not be a restriction then at the throttle body? Thus a larger body would allow more flow? There may be a pressure drop, but CFM should technically increase right?

[3GFX]

So where are we on the E60 throttle body?

Does it work / fit?

Yes I'm following up on my own thread

[GuidoK]

My e60 TB sits in a box in the garage. It's not a project I'm currently working on. Somewhere later this year maybe.

With the vortech system, would there not be a restriction then at the throttle body? Thus a larger body would allow more flow? There may be a pressure drop, but CFM should technically increase right?

Obviously it's a restriction, but as it works in a higher compressed air pocket, the same amount of air (as in the same amount of air molecules) take up less space.
So air flow speed before the compressor is higher than air flow speed after the compressor (within the same crossection of a duct).

As for a vortech system, I guess that more can be gained by ditching the m54 intake manifold and maybe mounting a m50 (I think) manifold.
The m54 manifold is optimized for resonances in the air with the disa valve etc, but in a FI system, all the air is force feed in that manifold and through the valves into the cilinders, so I don't think it is very susceptible to resonances. Usually on FI systems you want a big intake plenum, which is basically a room to collect pressurized air.
The m50 manifold is very straight foreward (no disa) and I think it will allow for an adapterplate for a big bore TB.
The m50 manifold also has big bores to the valves/cilinders (m54 also; both are used as a mod on m52 engines, that has a restricted manifold)

This is an m50 manifold on a m52 engine:

Pretty straight foreward.
Obviously there has to be some custom piping for ICV and CCV (and custom piping from compressor to TB probably)
But there are a lot of aftermarket parts for this stuff as a lot of m50 manifolds are fitted on m52/m52TU engines, and the m52 is very similar to the m54, except for the drive by wire, but mounting another TB (and making an adapterplate) is what this is all about in the first place so that hurdle must be taken anyway. It might be an interesting mod for VF FI owners.

Is with the vortech system something special done to the ccv or is it stock?

[pokeybritches]

I've looked into it. You'll need an adapter plate (a guy on another forum was offering them... or you can modify the head, because the shape is not the same), and you have to do something about DISA and the drive by wire throttle.

Some say the manifold tuning is even more important with FI, because the pressure waves intensify. It makes sense, since the air is thicker. Check out the last section, "Runner Length Ruminations":

http://www.mustangandfords.com/proje...ced-induction/

Intake runner discussion starts 2/3 of the way down the second page:
http://www.928motorsports.com/instal...tforthe928.pdf

[3GFX]

Just for reference (not that I trust anything non-branded, or from Thailand) here is another manifold option:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1042967

http://www.dino-cctv.com/detail/p_B0...ng-Onsale.html

http://www.amazon.com/Intake-Manifol...ct_top?ie=UTF8

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by pokeybritches

. It makes sense, since the air is thicker. Check out the last section, "Runner Length Ruminations":

http://www.mustangandfords.com/proje...ced-induction/

Intake runner discussion starts 2/3 of the way down the second page:
http://www.928motorsports.com/instal...tforthe928.pdf

Yes, the air is thicker, but there is way less of it volumetrically speaking, like I said in my earlier post. I know some thermodynamics, but am by no means an expert, so I have really no idea what will create more drag; air half the volume but double the pressure or vice versa.
What I do know is that air before the compressor is a fixed pressure (atmospheric pressure), and that a certain fixed amount of drag equals a larger portion percentage wise (like I demonstrated before).
I see it this way; if you see large industrial compressors (that go to 10 or 100 bar or whatever): the duct diameter before compression stage is huge, the diameter of the compressed air is tiny. like 5" inlet, 1" outlet.
I guess that;s also applicable on the compressor in a car.

As for your links, the first one is very crude and not very scientific. They attibute the effect to lenght of intake but don't consider volume at all!!
A longer tube also holds more air. The plenum is there to provide for a constant pressure, so that the air that flows into the cilinder when the valve just opens has the same pressure (so same amount of molecular flow) as when the valve almost closes (so when the cilindervolume is at it's largest)

The second link does speak of volume of plenum. Most FI literature has formula's to calculate possible ideal plenum volumes and what thought went into that. But also vary with ways to come up with that. That link speaks of " Plenums are designed to the 10th of a Liter to have the exact volume the manufacturer desires for the best throttle response and yet highest peak HP. "
That's also not a very scientific way to approach it. It apparantly takes for granted that there is only 1 ideal volume, and not considering how that has come to be. And apparantly that volume is the same for NA and FI (its about FI'ing an NA engine)
Like: thats the design spec so that is optimal to every theory and practice that always will be. In that scope engines would not progress in performance either, because the first one would have been designed in the ideal way in the first place.
Again there are no calculations, no CFD moddeling, no testing etc etc
So the text is only speculative. And you can speculate on everything...

In the end you can try and calculate everything, flow bench everything, but even this is a testing approach. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, so in the end you have to build the thing and see how it really performs. If you look at the n54/n55 inlet manifold it's really simple in shape whereas the m54 and n52 has all kinds of flaps and ducting, bypasses etc etc to create different lenghts and resonances to optimize torque curves etc. Yet the n54 has a much wider torque range. Same goes for the B58 (340i) intake manifold with build in charge cooler. Pretty simple&straight foreward. No special ducting, valves etc to create rpm dependant resonances.

But ontopic: I think the m50 manifold may yeald gains, or it may not. What's very obvious is that it makes fitting a larger TB much much easier than the m54 manifold, and that is the core of this topic.
On the m54 IM there is hardly any room and opening up the hole is also virtually impossible if you look at the pics. So in that light the m50 manifold might be a very attractive option to experiment on.
It's also pretty cheap and abundantly available on breakers yards, ebay etc, so it doesnt require much (financially) to try.
If you shop 2nd hand you can probably get the parts for $100 or so, and you have a TB that's much bigger than the dinan TB can ever be for a fraction of the price.
And you have an unique project, not just some bolt on part that everyone can buy....

Originally Posted by 3GFX

Just for reference (not that I trust anything non-branded, or from Thailand) here is another manifold option:

Yes very nice. Easy to fit a big TB
Probably not possible with a compressor.
I wonder what the price is. its not available by the looks of it.