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      09-17-2019, 11:00 AM   #1
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(solved) weird soft top issue- cant manually raise

'06 E85. For a while, my soft top worked great automatically. I cleaned the water drainage bungs when i bought the car a few months ago. Unfortunately, I had the bright idea to engage the emergency release bypass when my motors worked fine to "preserve the life" of them. Not sure if this caused the issue or not.

After a couple times dropping and raising it on my own, the top got stuck when i tried to raise it in bypass mode. It'll come about 1/4th of the way up and then get completely stuck. I've re engaged the motors and they've worked fine putting it back up for a while but recently the top seizes completely partially up.

Heres the strange part: If i have the top in automatic mode (boden cable not pulled), and in the lowered position, the motors will make noise but not do anything for about ten seconds of holding the button. The top will then snap up quickly as if it suddenly got pressure, and then stop at the 1/3rd up position. At this point i can raise it by hand with no resistance whatsoever the rest of the way, and this is with the boden cable not pulled. If i have it in bypass mode, I can only get it up partially by myself. Its as if the motors have to do the first 1/4th and i have to do the rest.

I believe my motors are fine but even if they're toast I don't mind manually raising and dropping the top, but I cant even do that.
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      09-17-2019, 08:30 PM   #2
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The emergency by-pass system in the motor/pump is failing. It is most likely half open/half closed.

You advised that when lifting the top with the motor/pump it at some point will stop moving, but you can complete closing it manually with easy without using the red handle in the trunk. Why, because with the by-pass half engaged the system has no hydo force to lift the top completely. The fact that you can move the top manually without engaging the by-pass is clear evidence of by-pass failure. Your by-pass is most likely stuck/jammed half closed.

My motor and my by-pass failed at about the same time. I was lucky, my top was up when these failures happened. Anyway, when I got the motor out the area around the by-pass was coated in a white hard...stuff. The by-pass runs on a cable which is attached to the motor/pump. When engaged a lever on the pump pushes in a brass/copper ball bearing which cuts the fluid from the pump allowing the top to be moved manually. On my motor that white stuff had totally locked up the brass bearing from any movement.
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      09-18-2019, 09:14 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAS1169 View Post
Anyway, when I got the motor out the area around the by-pass was coated in a white hard...stuff. The by-pass runs on a cable which is attached to the motor/pump. When engaged a lever on the pump pushes in a brass/copper ball bearing which cuts the fluid from the pump allowing the top to be moved manually. On my motor that white stuff had totally locked up the brass bearing from any movement.
How did you fix this issue? Is it a simple cleaning or did you replace the motor? If I could just have the manual bypass engaged, I really don't need the motor to work. It is also worth mentioning that when my boden cable is pulled, the motor doesn't do anything at all.
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      09-18-2019, 11:11 AM   #4
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Is there any indication that the moving parts of the convertible top frame assembly itself are sticking together and needing some lubrication perhaps? No sign of corrosion there either?

Also, in automatic mode, does the top lower normally?
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      09-18-2019, 11:21 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huz-Z View Post
Is there any indication that the moving parts of the convertible top frame assembly itself are sticking together and needing some lubrication perhaps? No sign of corrosion there either?

Also, in automatic mode, does the top lower normally?
In auto mode, it does lower normally as far as I remember. It doesn't seem like anything is sticking together, as the manual motion from the 1/4th point is effortless. Tomorrow I will see about removing the convertible top to take a look at the motors for corrosion.
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      09-18-2019, 12:23 PM   #6
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This is a weird one. If the top motor had failed, I would expect that when you press the button to lower the roof, it would only unlatch at the windshield header and from there, not lower at all. So perhaps its some other issue as has been noted above, or perhaps the hydraulic fluid is low or is leaking. I think it takes more effort to open the top compared to closing it, which seems to suggest that there could be some mechanical binding going on when closing.

There may be some helpful info on these recent threads; particularly ClearanceDiver's comment:

https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1651619

and:

https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1649582
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      09-18-2019, 12:36 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huz-Z View Post
This is a weird one. If the top motor had failed, I would expect that when you press the button to lower the roof, it would only unlatch at the windshield header and from there, not lower at all. So perhaps its some other issue as has been noted above, or perhaps the hydraulic fluid is low or is leaking. I think it takes more effort to open the top compared to closing it, which seems to suggest that there could be some mechanical binding going on when closing.

There may be some helpful info on these recent threads; particularly ClearanceDiver's comment:

https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1651619

and:

https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1649582
What a coincidence. I also had mine at the dealer for the PCV heater recall shortly before this started happening. Strange.

This confuses me even more.
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      09-18-2019, 01:49 PM   #8
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I had the PCV heater done on my car (back in June) as well. I've been very firm with them on not washing my car, particularly with a power washer because I'm terrified it will kill the top motor, in which case they won't need to see the new Rambo flic this weekend because they'll see it in person instead....

Now, I don't suppose they power-washed your car, following which the roof problem started?
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      09-18-2019, 01:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huz-Z View Post
I had the PCV heater done on my car in June as well. I've been very firm with them on not washing my car, particularly with a power washer because I'm terrified it will kill the top motor, in which case they won't need to see the new Rambo flic this weekend because they'll see it in person instead....

I don't suppose they power-washed your car?
Well, it was cleaned when I got it back. Not sure if they used a power washer. (It wasn't that clean). Even if the motors died, shouldn't the hydro emergency pass through work?
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      09-18-2019, 02:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c85 View Post
Well, it was cleaned when I got it back. Not sure if they used a power washer. (It wasn't that clean). Even if the motors died, shouldn't the hydro emergency pass through work?
Well perhaps the motor should be okay if the roof drains are unblocked. And yup, its darn weird that you can't completely disengage the hydraulic system and operate the top manually with relative ease.

Caveate - I have to acknowledge that I have no conclusive proof that power-washing can be a root cause of some power top failure on these cars.

But.

A friend of mine bought a 2008 Z4 3.0si a few years back. One afternoon a couple of years ago, he called me to say that his power top wasn't working; the symptoms were typical of top motor failure and to this day he is using it manually. However, he did admit to me that a day or so before the top motor failed, he had washed his car with a power washer. So, the timing is certainly suspect.

Also, consider that the roof drains and the power top motor are designed to operate in conditions where the water is flowing off the body of the car during heavy or even torrential rain, through the drain channel and over the motor housing - but all the while those systems are handling water at pressure which is far below what you get out the nozzle of a power washer. I have no idea where that water can get to in the car, or what components it can penetrate, when it is coming from a high pressure source like a pressure washer. And I don't think that many of the guys out in the dealer wash bay have ever taken any BMW technical courses on how convertible tops operate and how they should be maintained........

So I always insist that under no circumstances is the dealer to wash my car, regardless of method.

Let's hope there is something else going on here that the gang here can help with. If the top is opening as you say, it may very well be something else, and perhaps that is a relatively easy low cost fix.
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      09-18-2019, 04:42 PM   #11
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The hydraulic system on these cars are under a great amount of pressure so they can open and close the weight of the roof. Given the amount of pressure within the system you shouldn't be able to easily move the top manually without the by-pass being engaged. If you can move the top easily without the by-pass being engaged then...the by-pass system has issues.

You have to reach the motor and move it to your trunk. After the motor is in your trunk you now have control and can chose your next step at your leisure (new motor, attempt to fix the old motor, go manual ...whatever). Basically, your car, your call.

You can do this by removing the top. There are a lot of good d/I/y info on the net on doing this. You can also try the European thru the trunk method of changing the motor.
I did this method, it's unpleasant and a pain but, I had the motor in the trunk in 3 hours.

There also a new method of reaching the motor. I'll reposted this new method after I find the link on youtube. I should note that I did not use this method because it's new and I can't say if it will work. However, it look's like this new method might actually work if your able to move the top, which you can.


Here's the link on that 3rd method. The guy posting has a link in it which has a written step by step on doing this.


Last edited by JAS1169; 09-18-2019 at 04:48 PM.. Reason: adding link
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      09-18-2019, 04:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAS1169 View Post
The hydraulic system on these cars are under a great amount of pressure so they can open and close the weight of the roof. Given the amount of pressure within the system you shouldn't be able to easily move the top manually without the by-pass being engaged. If you can move the top easily without the by-pass being engaged then...the by-pass system has issues.

You have to reach the motor and move it to your trunk. After the motor is in your trunk you now have control and can chose your next step at your leisure (new motor, attempt to fix the old motor, go manual ...whatever). Basically, your car, your call.

You can do this by removing the top. There are a lot of good d/I/y info on the net on doing this. You can also try the European thru the trunk method of changing the motor.
I did this method, it's unpleasant and a pain but, I had the motor in the trunk in 3 hours.

There also a new method of reaching the motor. I'll reposted this new method after I find the link on youtube. I should note that I did not use this method because it's new and I can't say if it will work. However, it look's like this new method might actually work if your able to move the top, which you can.


Here's the link on that 3rd method. The guy posting has a link in it which has a written step by step on doing this.

Thanks. I'll try this when I get home from school tomorrow. I'll update with how it went.
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      09-19-2019, 10:16 PM   #13
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Got the motor into the trunk using the European "through the trunk" method. Relatively easy. Surprisingly, there was no water damage to the motor whatsoever. The assembly was dry, and there was no corrosion, mold, or otherwise.

My hydraulic fluid reservoir atop the motor was empty however. I topped it up and everything seems to be running quite smoothly now. Only issue is two of my hydro lines from the pump don't have enough slack to place the motor behind the carpet at the correct angle. I rigged it up temporarily until I have the time and patience to deal with that issue.

I'll also have to locate the source of the hydraulic leak which I only assume exists.
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      09-20-2019, 06:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c85 View Post
Got the motor into the trunk using the European "through the trunk" method. Relatively easy. Surprisingly, there was no water damage to the motor whatsoever. The assembly was dry, and there was no corrosion, mold, or otherwise.

My hydraulic fluid reservoir atop the motor was empty however. I topped it up and everything seems to be running quite smoothly now. Only issue is two of my hydro lines from the pump don't have enough slack to place the motor behind the carpet at the correct angle. I rigged it up temporarily until I have the time and patience to deal with that issue.

I'll also have to locate the source of the hydraulic leak which I only assume exists.
This is very good news!

So guys - re the "European through the trunk method", where can I get info on that?
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      09-20-2019, 08:32 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huz-Z View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by c85 View Post
Got the motor into the trunk using the European "through the trunk" method. Relatively easy. Surprisingly, there was no water damage to the motor whatsoever. The assembly was dry, and there was no corrosion, mold, or otherwise.

My hydraulic fluid reservoir atop the motor was empty however. I topped it up and everything seems to be running quite smoothly now. Only issue is two of my hydro lines from the pump don't have enough slack to place the motor behind the carpet at the correct angle. I rigged it up temporarily until I have the time and patience to deal with that issue.

I'll also have to locate the source of the hydraulic leak which I only assume exists.
This is very good news!

So guys - re the "European through the trunk method", where can I get info on that?
https://zroadster.org/threads/z4-roo...to-boot.19256/

This is by far the best guide I found.
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      09-20-2019, 12:00 PM   #16
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I really hoped it was the by-pass since you'd been fooling with it.

If the lines appear short, check to see if you cut all of the ties. It should fit in the area in the trunk behind the driver without issue.

I'm hoping your leak isn't caused by a failed hinge lifter. That's a bigger & more costly repair. However, there are outfits in the state of Washington and Florida which will rebuild them.
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      09-20-2019, 01:40 PM   #17
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For now, I'll top it up whenever needed. I really don't want to disassemble the entire top to access the lift and I'm sure as hell not paying the dealership to do it. I'm just glad my top works. Next on my list is exhaust, wheels, and a wrap.
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