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      09-09-2019, 12:37 PM   #1
Gamb1t
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3.0 or 3.0si? pre-LCI vs LCI

Hi ya,

I've been toying with the idea of adding a Z4 into my garage. This is the only generation of Z4 that resonates with me. I've looked around the interweb on the differences for these models and from what I understand the 3.0si has more hp.
However it comes with EPS while the older 3.0 (less hp) is still hydraulic?
While I prefer the LCI model, are there any value in considering the pre-LCI still?
Are there anything I should look out for?

I'm not new to BMWs. Have had a few BMW in the past and currently have 2. Manual is a must. Thank you!!!
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      09-10-2019, 06:35 AM   #2
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All the non-M Z4s have electric power steering, from 2003 to 2008. The 2003, 2004 and 2005 models make less power, true, but they have a heavier and more robust engine block, so you can wring more power out of them, as I understand it (i.e., a supercharger). I also think that the wiring harness in these earlier cars is a generic one, meaning that you can do stuff like just plug and play power seats into such a car that may have come from the factory with manual seats, for example. The later cars had an option-specific wiring harness preventing that. The 2006, 2007 and 2008 cars have a much lighter engine block so they are more or less at their power capacity. But they are a bit better on gas and have better power. These later cars though generally have more options and a few improvements here and there (ie, the power top motor was allegedly improved to make it more resistant to water failure).

One thing to look for on any roadster is proper operation of the power top (unless you are looking at a car with a manual top). It should open and close smoothly and quickly. BMW placed the motors in a roof drain channel behind the driver seat and its prone to flooding and failure if that drain gets blocked.

If anyone here sees something I got wrong, please chime in - don't want the OP to have wrong info!
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      09-10-2019, 12:31 PM   #3
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Thanks Huz-z. Been reading some. I understand that the pre-lci 3.0i (m54) has wee bit more power and tq than the lci 3.0i (n52). However the latter can be modified to the 3.0si(n52) by installing the 3-stage intake manifold and tune.

From what i read, the n52 likes to be revved. I like my sportscars rev-happy. That said is the M54 feels more like a truck-engine compared to the n52?
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      09-10-2019, 01:16 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post
Thanks Huz-z. Been reading some. I understand that the pre-lci 3.0i (m54) has wee bit more power and tq than the lci 3.0i (n52). However the latter can be modified to the 3.0si(n52) by installing the 3-stage intake manifold and tune.

From what i read, the n52 likes to be revved. I like my sportscars rev-happy. That said is the M54 feels more like a truck-engine compared to the n52?
I think the power output was like this:

2003, 2004 and 2005:
2.5i = 189 hp
3.0i = 225 hp

2006, 2007 and 2008:
3.0i = 215 hp
3.0si = 255 hp

I think you can do the upgrade on a lci 3.0i (n52) as you say, but its a bit of work as I understand it. Probably easier to just buy an si.

I haven't driven a car with an M54 so I can't compare it to my si. Cheers!
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      09-12-2019, 11:56 AM   #5
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There are vendors selling the 3-stage intake and tune for the N52 engine so it is a pretty common and moderately easy way to gain 40 HP. Which is not an easy thing to do on a NA motor!

I'd put the presence of the M Sport suspension right up there with the si motor in terms of importance. I'd also suggest leaving a bit of funds in the wallet for a limited slip differential, if you intend to use the car as intended. That was the thing that I missed most on my 3.0si coupe.

Manuals will be harder to find than automatics, although there should be a good enough population of roadsters to make the search productive. (Manual coupes are hounds teeth.)

I think the two big items to look out for are sticky steering rack on older examples, and convertible top operation. The motor is in a place that can get wet and is a frequent replacement item in cars that have gotten as old as these. Plus the usual stuff like decent service records, number of previous owners, yada yada.

Good luck!
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      10-05-2019, 07:49 AM   #6
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I recently picked up a 2005 E46 330Ci Convertible, so I now have some experience with the 3 Liter M54. In the fleet I now have the '06 325i N52 (215 HP), the '08 Z4 3.0si with the N52 (261 HP), and the M54 (228 HP). My opinion is the N52 is a more rev-happy engine than the M54. The M54 is a bit smoother (read as more isolated) but seems to rev a bit slower. I'd get the Z4 3.0si with the N52B30.

Regarding the Z4 EPS, it's a very good system. It is not a traditional electrically powered steering rack. The E85/86 electrically powers the steering system via a motor and worm gear attached to the steering column. IMO this set up gives a more natural steering feel. TBH, when I bought my Z4 Coupe used, when I got it home, I went looking for the power steering reservoir to check the fluid, and to my amusement I couldn't find it (I'm a pretty serious gearhead). I went on line and found out the system is electric assist. I think it is a great design, and if a car has to have EPS, the Z4 column-powered design is the best EPS design. The power steering motor actually sits in the cabin behind the gage cluster, so it is protected from the elements, which I suppose improves on reliability. You'll read the Z4M has better (hydraulic) steering, which probably is true relative to the EPS version, but the EPS in the Z4 is pretty damned good; good enough for me not to notice it was electrically assisted. Keep in mind I've have/had 4 other BMWs all with hydraulic steering, so I'm no stranger to 3-Series BMW steering feel, which goes back over 40 years. BTW, the original release of the F30, with an EPS rack, which I've driven several times, once for a week for 800+ miles, has a poorly executed EPS system. If you are concerned about steering feel of the Z4 EPS, don't be.

My 2 cents.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 10-13-2019 at 09:15 AM..
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      10-07-2019, 11:21 AM   #7
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Sounds good. Thanks! It's harder to find 3.0si. I think an LCI 3.0i will do especially I can source a 3-stage IM.
I was terribly disappointed with the Camry-inspired EPS in the F30.
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      10-11-2019, 05:42 PM   #8
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I have an E46 330I ZHP that I bought in 2016 that has the M54. I loved it so much I didn't want to drive in the winter with it. So I picked up a lowly six speed 06 325i that November from Denver. On the way home, guess what, I fell in love with the N52. The torque from that engine is so much flatter. It had much more lower RPM power and was much smoother to the redline. I've had several E46 330i/330ci cars and while the M54 is a great engine, there are also hoses that frequently go bad due to low quality materials and it seemed to be more prone to vacuum leaks. I truly prefer the N52 at this point. I last took my ZHP out during the summer of 2017, and enjoyed it, but pushing the N52 was more fun to me. When I picked up my Z4 last year I made sure I got the N52 (07 3.0) and obviously have no regrets. The ZHP has been sitting in the garage since 2017.

Last edited by Mantraxalos; 10-12-2019 at 07:40 AM..
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      10-12-2019, 12:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantraxalos View Post
I have an E46 330I ZHP that I bought in 2016 that has the M54. I loved it so much I didn't want to drive in the winter with it. So I picked up a lowly six speed 06 325i that November. On the way home from Denver, guess what, I fell in love with the N52. The torque from that engine so much flatter. It had much more lower RPM power and was much smoother to the redline. I've had several E46 330i/330ci cars and while the M54 is a great engine, there are also hoses that frequently go bad due to low quality materials and it seemed to be more prone to vacuum leaks. I truly prefer the N52 at this point. I last took my ZHP out during the summer of 2017, and enjoyed it, but pushing the N52 was more fun to me. When I picked up my Z4 last year I made sure I got the N52 (07 3.0) and obviously have no regrets. The ZHP has been sitting in the garage since 2017.
Agree. We have or have had two S54 engined cars, and the S50 variant and recently acquired a N52 engine Z4 coupe. What a delight the engine is, just keeps on giving. For pure visceral delight I'd rate the engine over the S54 and next to a S50 in terms of sheer driving pleasure.
Although in saying, neither of the S54's have CSL airboxes.. might be a different story then!
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      10-13-2019, 09:17 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantraxalos View Post
I have an E46 330I ZHP that I bought in 2016 that has the M54. I loved it so much I didn't want to drive in the winter with it. So I picked up a lowly six speed 06 325i that November from Denver. On the way home, guess what, I fell in love with the N52. The torque from that engine is so much flatter. It had much more lower RPM power and was much smoother to the redline. I've had several E46 330i/330ci cars and while the M54 is a great engine, there are also hoses that frequently go bad due to low quality materials and it seemed to be more prone to vacuum leaks. I truly prefer the N52 at this point. I last took my ZHP out during the summer of 2017, and enjoyed it, but pushing the N52 was more fun to me. When I picked up my Z4 last year I made sure I got the N52 (07 3.0) and obviously have no regrets. The ZHP has been sitting in the garage since 2017.
Wow, don't go posting such blasphemy over on E90 Post, the turbo guys will flame all over you. The lowly 325i N52 is the most disrespected BMW engine on the planet.

But seriously, I think some of it is due to the E90 chassis being more connected than the E46. My opinion of course.
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      10-13-2019, 01:35 PM   #11
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I’ve got an E70 X5 35i, so that is the N55 I think. It makes more power than the N52 in my Z4 3,0si but the N52 is way smoother with no awful turbo lag and seems to me to be a much more refined engine. I say this after just parking the X5 and taking the Z out for a spin on a lovely fall day.
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      10-13-2019, 03:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
But seriously, I think some of it is due to the E90 chassis being more connected than the E46. My opinion of course.
No kidding? I haven't had any time in an E46 but would have assumed the opposite based on the thrashing the E90 took in the press. I definitely enjoy the handling of my E93 (N51, even lower in the pecking order than the N52 amongst E9xers), especially lately since I tossed the runflats. But there's a definite gap between it and my Z4, and I kind of assumed the E46 was further towards the Z in terms of corner competence.
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      10-14-2019, 05:31 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
No kidding? I haven't had any time in an E46 but would have assumed the opposite based on the thrashing the E90 took in the press. I definitely enjoy the handling of my E93 (N51, even lower in the pecking order than the N52 amongst E9xers), especially lately since I tossed the runflats. But there's a definite gap between it and my Z4, and I kind of assumed the E46 was further towards the Z in terms of corner competence.
I've driven 3 examples of the E46. I looked at the E46 as the replacement to my then 15 year old E30 sometime in 2004 or 2005. I found the E46 less engaging and isolated than the E30 and more like the 1st gen Lexus IS300 that I was comparing the E46 to. The second example of an E46 I drove was years later, around 2015, that had racked up 270,000 miles and was not kept in good shape. It drove surprisingly well, but still felt like the over-isolated BMW I found when I test drove the E46 from a dealer 10 years or so prior.

Lastly the third example is the E46 330Ci Cabrio I just acquired. I wasn't that interested in the car at first, but the seller offered it to me at trade-in price, so I figured I couldn't lose buying it. The car is in great shape at 100,000 miles. We have a Z3 Roadster already, so I didn't need a convertible but the E90 is quite aged in some respects. Anyway, I've grown to like the car, but the chassis and M54 are still isolated as I found in the other E46 I've driven. It probably is the E46 convertible chassis mostly since it's 3,600 pounds (my E90 is around 3,300), which makes the car less precise as I would expect from a 3-series. I mean the E46 does give the driver the 3-series experience, it's just dulled and less precise IMO. Again most of that opinion comes at the helm of a Cabrio.

Back to 2006, when I was shopping the E90. I test drove a manual, sport package E90 in late 2005 about a year after the E46 experience, and the E90 immediately felt like a proper 3-series to me. The only regret I have was a stupidly sold the E30 in 2006.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      10-14-2019, 06:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Wow, don't go posting such blasphemy over on E90 Post, the turbo guys will flame all over you. The lowly 325i N52 is the most disrespected BMW engine on the planet.

But seriously, I think some of it is due to the E90 chassis being more connected than the E46. My opinion of course.
I always enjoy hearing your feedback because you've driven the E90 for so many miles. When I switched to the E90, I immediately felt the handling difference compared to all the E46s. The car felt much more planted to the ground. That was very evident especially in the corners with bumps. I still felt more connected to the car with the E46 however. The E46 was more lively in the turns, meaning it shifts around more when going over bumps, and on fast turns I feel as though I get a little better communication when the car is losing grip. The E46 also being a little smaller, seems cozier and easier for me to navigate around turns. All that is part of the excitement of driving it for me. However, all those suspension parts go bad so much sooner in the E46/E85 - FCAs and FCABs especially. I have never seen an E46 with original suspension over 100k miles. Well let me say tight suspension. I have seen many E90s with original suspension still tight over 120k miles. I love the aspect of less maintenance with the E90.

Last edited by Mantraxalos; 10-14-2019 at 07:03 PM..
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      10-15-2019, 05:40 PM   #15
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Hmm... this thread has transmogrified into a an e46/e90 thread.
Sounds like the take away is that the N52 is a sweeter engine than the M54. That's great. Prices for 3.0i for either engines seem similar based on mileage.

Do you know if suspension has been reworked pre/lci? 3.0i vs 3.0si?
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      10-15-2019, 08:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post
Hmm... this thread has transmogrified into a an e46/e90 thread.
Sounds like the take away is that the N52 is a sweeter engine than the M54. That's great. Prices for 3.0i for either engines seem similar based on mileage.

Do you know if suspension has been reworked pre/lci? 3.0i vs 3.0si?
"si" means it has a sport suspension.

Well, actually, the E85/86 is based off the E46, the front and rear suspensions are practically the same, except for tuning. And the E86 is about one of the stiffest chassis you can buy without needing a home mortgage sized loan. The E85 roadster is damned stiff in it own right. Great cars. Get one.
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Last edited by Efthreeoh; 10-15-2019 at 08:57 PM..
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      10-15-2019, 09:14 PM   #17
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All of the coupes are 3.0si. Not all have sport suspension. Not sure about the roadies.

I think si means the N52 with 3 stage intake and 255hp.
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      10-15-2019, 09:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
All of the coupes are 3.0si. Not all have sport suspension. Not sure about the roadies.

I think si means the N52 with 3 stage intake and 255hp.
Sport suspension was an option with the 3.0si roadster also.
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      10-16-2019, 06:03 AM   #19
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I checked my options on a vin decoder and it said my car has an “M Sport Suspension”.

As I understand it, my car has the "Sport Package", which included the suspension noted above that is among other things, lower than a car without it. I think that the brakes were also a bit bigger than otherwise and the car was equipped with the Sport button to modify steering and throttle response (and shift points on automatic transmission cars). Automatic transmission cars also got paddle shifters too. And you got the 18 inch Style 108 rim.

More info here:

http://www.bmwz4roadster.net/brochure/2007_E85-E86.pdf

Last edited by Huz-Z; 10-16-2019 at 07:28 AM..
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