Z4M vs.370Z

[Vanne]

Did u just say brz vs M z4 coupe?
Lol!! Come on man, I do like the brz/gt86, Possibly as a fully swapped out track car..

[imom]

Vanne, have you driven a BRZ? It's a fun car. Yeah I did say BRZ vs M coupe. Depends on what your needs are and what you like about the car. The M coupe is very cool...what I don't like far as aesthetics is the front end...lots of neat little features like the trunk handle being the emblem. Both cars are capable of over 500HP. Unless you go with TC KLINE and have a 2600 lb carbon fiber car... the BRZ requires less money to be a good daily driver and track car to shed 200 lbs versus 600" lbs of the M cars.

Stock M cars is good car for track...but not all people track. As I said before...the 3.0SI and BRZ are better daily drivers and has less maintenance cost. For the lack of power for the BRZ... aftermarket superchargers and turbos can be take care of that.

I'm not knocking the Z4s...I've driven all the higher end flavors of the Z4s for over 5 years... best cars I have and always put a smile on my face when I drove them. I'm just not interested the higher maintenance cost and the lack of space for a daily driver and only car. The OP asked about used M car vs 370 new...BRZ would be able to keep up...just need a little supercharge for the straight line, but in the twisty parts... it would keep up...just gotta change out the prius tires to comparable M size tires.

[Vanne]

hey man, i hear ya, my mate has a gt86, (i think he was one of the first deliveries when it first came out) , and for what it is, its great, and yeah you sure are right man, its one heck of a fun little car... ESP in the twists.. but i dont think its a solid quality car, the cockpit feels spacey/ricey instead of elegant. and stock, i think the engine is a joke for that chassis. its a car that you will see in the years to come driven by hoons and teenagers with rich parents. I also personally dont like the look of it, very plastic(y). i did however love the seats in it though. as a track car though, if the engine is swapped or enhanced, ofcourse it could keep up with the Mcoupe..
this is a good thing ofcourse though, even though i may not like it, i can acknowledge the team effert from Toyota and Subaru to come to the market with this little gem, however once again, from the ads ive seen, aimed at a younger generation than myself.

[David70]

With the comparison of a new BRZ and a used M Coupe. Both cost about the same now but my feeling is in 5 years the BRZ will be worth at least $5k less than the M. Same thing applies to the depreciation of a new 370Z (or even slightly used) compared to the M. The added depreciation of the new car would pay for a lot of maintenance/repairs/fuel on the M.

I expect the M to keep depreciating some (especially as you add miles) but not at the nearly the same rate as a new car.

From Edmunds TCO they estimate $18,909 in depreciation of a new 370Z over 5 years. This may be high (I have no idea), but I don't see my M taking anywhere close to this hit over the same time period.

http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/370z/2...tyle=101421619

[imom]

Vanne and David, you two are both correct. I think the M will depreciate slower and less... maybe even appreciate over time than a BRZ or 370Z. The volume of cars sold vs M cars...imagine a 1M right now...I believe it's only made for 1 year.

The BRZ interior is cheap...the head unit is far worse...I take the sound system and head unit of the Z4M over the BRZ any day...and that's a 6 years+ car. I prefer the M seats over the BRZ... but I knew this coming into a 28K MSRP vs 58K MSRP. New leather covers and custom leather parts would make the BRZ more classy on par with Z4 (non extended leather edition). I wish they would have sold the BRZ for $35K and added the leather comforts to it as a touring edition.

Vanne...curious what you think of the Corvette Stingray...first corvette interior I see as being very nice.

[Vanne]

Imom, I am a big fan of the classic stingray. And the current vette too. Not so much the 80's ones, you can keep them.

[beta]

The thing that people forget is that the M is a 70 thousand dollar car. Even though it's not worth that much today, it was worth that much (minus markup) to make.

And it shows in the little things. The fact that the windshield wipers adjust their speed depending on rain fall, the mirrors dim to keep you from being completely blinded, the tactile yet simple A/C controls, etc. etc.

All these things are trivial and I used to think complete nonsense. But when you get used to having these things and then need to drive a rental... you really miss the features: I left the lights on every time I parked the car at night for example.

Sure it's all first world problems, but it affects the experience. That's why the only thing that would get me out of the Z4M would be a McLaren P13 or a BMW i8.

As for depreciation, the BRZ will be worth 10k before long. They're going to continue to make it year after year after year, so it will continue to depreciate as new models are released. The M however, will be above 20k for at least another 20 years, and may continue to appreciate depending on where the market goes.

[David70]

Originally Posted by imom

Vanne and David, you two are both correct. I think the M will depreciate slower and less... maybe even appreciate over time than a BRZ or 370Z. The volume of cars sold vs M cars...imagine a 1M right now...I believe it's only made for 1 year.

The BRZ interior is cheap...the head unit is far worse...I take the sound system and head unit of the Z4M over the BRZ any day...and that's a 6 years+ car. I prefer the M seats over the BRZ... but I knew this coming into a 28K MSRP vs 58K MSRP. New leather covers and custom leather parts would make the BRZ more classy on par with Z4 (non extended leather edition). I wish they would have sold the BRZ for $35K and added the leather comforts to it as a touring edition.

Vanne...curious what you think of the Corvette Stingray...first corvette interior I see as being very nice.

While I brought up depreciation it is only one of many factors and I can understand you wanting to move on. I probably wouldn't daily drive the Z4M either (but some do) and having a newer car with a warranty and being far cheaper to repair and maintain (not to mention the headaches of dealing with repairs) has something to be said for it. Also, if our car purchases were all about cost of ownership and being practical we wouldn't buy any of these cars.

[beta]

Originally Posted by David70

newer car with a warranty and being far cheaper to repair and maintain (not to mention the headaches of dealing with repairs)

Definitely agree with the psychological aspect of not having to worry. But cheaper is relative. If the car loses 10k value over 5 years, that's more than the 3-5k you would spend on maintenance/extra fuel/repairs on an M.

That is as long as something catastrophic doesn't happen, which is unlikely (but goes back to the point of not having to worry).

[imom]

beta,
I doubt an M car will stay above 20K in the near future unless it's has less mileage on it. A lot of cars will hold some resale value. The M car, mine at least MSRP for $58K+, but I bought it used...it had already taken it's 50% hit the first few years as any other car would. Saying a BRZ or any other car as well except for a few rare exceptions is going to depreciate over 50%... it's no different...really depends on the condition of the car. If you look at a Saturn sky redline it's about the same age as an M car... it's depreciation is about the same... The only benefit I see from the M cars is that there are less in production than BRZ...so there will be a bell shape curve on the depreciation in time... how many of you will hold on to your M for 40years+?

Oh BTW, there are a few things I miss about the M cars as I mentioned previously...the fat steering wheel, hill assist ( I really got used to that), don't have on BRZ, leather seats...it is the little things do make the driving experience better or worse depending on the car.

To the OP...hopefully this thread wasn't hijacked...just wanted to give you more info.

[templarklimek]

It isn't, all this knowledge is quite helpful on the subject of the Z4M vs. other sports cars. I made the right decision! It offers all I was hoping for. It feels different enough from my s65 m3 so I can enjoy both cars.

The car is light on it's feet and quite powerful. It doesn't pull quite as hard as the M3 up top but very strong. It is a handful though. It's going to take time to learn how to drive it. Where the JCW mini or the M3 to a lessor degree can be tossed into a corner with near reckless abandon doing that in this car is a bad idea. It feels like a Cheetah, twitchy and ready to pounce. i'm not ashamed to say I'm slightly sacred to push it right now. With the sport button engaged I'm even worse. The M3 in sport mode is still easier to control. The Z4M gets even more twitchy, I'm having a harder time with the touchy throttle and shifting smoothly because of it. I know practice make perfect. Is the clutch valve many talk about part of the problem?

[gtMc]

Originally Posted by imom

beta,
I doubt an M car will stay above 20K in the near future unless it's has less mileage on it. A lot of cars will hold some resale value. The M car, mine at least MSRP for $58K+, but I bought it used...it had already taken it's 50% hit the first few years as any other car would. Saying a BRZ or any other car as well except for a few rare exceptions is going to depreciate over 50%... it's no different...really depends on the condition of the car. If you look at a Saturn sky redline it's about the same age as an M car... it's depreciation is about the same... The only benefit I see from the M cars is that there are less in production than BRZ...so there will be a bell shape curve on the depreciation in time... how many of you will hold on to your M for 40years+?.

Would respectfully disagree with the statement that an m car will not likely stay above 20k in the near future, especially if its an e86 M. The reason is .... well you said it. Less were produced.

It comes down to supply and demand that dictates the shape of a cars depreciation Curve. The z8 is a good example of a car that saw very little depreciation and for the most part has appreciated. As for an e86 M, its curve has stalled its downward momentum significantly the past 2 years, as it develops almost a cult like following.

[gtMc]

Originally Posted by templarklimek

It isn't, all this knowledge is quite helpful on the subject of the Z4M vs. other sports cars. I made the right decision! It offers all I was hoping for. It feels different enough from my s65 m3 so I can enjoy both cars.

The car is light on it's feet and quite powerful. It doesn't pull quite as hard as the M3 up top but very strong. It is a handful though. It's going to take time to learn how to drive it. Where the JCW mini or the M3 to a lessor degree can be tossed into a corner with near reckless abandon doing that in this car is a bad idea. It feels like a Cheetah, twitchy and ready to pounce. i'm not ashamed to say I'm slightly sacred to push it right now. With the sport button engaged I'm even worse. The M3 in sport mode is still easier to control. The Z4M gets even more twitchy, I'm having a harder time with the touchy throttle and shifting smoothly because of it. I know practice make perfect. Is the clutch valve many talk about part of the problem?

Op, glad to hear you are enjoying it. It truly is a car that needs to be mastered and takes effort.

Most of us leave that sport button off for the reasons you mentioned. It is a twitchy cheetah. Cdv delete, re trans mounts and vt engine mounts will drastically improves the cars shifting and improve its overall feel.

Enjoy!

[imom]

gtMc,
If you look at the Solstice coupe...that will most likely be a collector's car.. very few were made and will appreciate...though maybe not now. The M coupe for sure will appreciate in time, but I do see it depreciating more still before it goes back up again. I just search for 1M and see how that car went from $50K new goes to $65K used with mileage. Now that's driving a car for free and making money...insane.

I do see the M cars depreciating less because there are less cars made, but also the resale value is decent. I'm not so concerned about the depreciation cost as much as the maintenance on this car. Just like many sport luxury cars... it's high maintenance and a joy to drive...it has to say a lot when a 5 to 6 year old car drives better than a hyped up BRZ/FRS... The M wasn't my fav daily driver, but for a weekend car...it's very exciting...I say this because my commute is 4 miles and just traffic lights.

For OP, +1 what gtMc said... the transmission mount and switching tranny fluid made a nice difference...I had done Royal purple twice...it made an improvement, but not sure if REDLINE or Motul would be better. Also if you can change the motor mount I think you will be very happy... I was about 85% happy just doing the CDV, tranny mount, and tranny fluid change. The transmission felt very good except for the occasional second gear that I suspsect the motor mount would fix.

Seeing that OP bought his M... enough the depreciation talk...congrats...drive the hell out of your car...it's a great platform. Please check out the CDV removal it's so easy on the Z4...it's a pain in the BRZ... One other note for you...I had a clutch pedal stop on the carpet that I didn't know about... I removed it...for some it helps...for me it was better without.

[beta]

Originally Posted by imom

I doubt an M car will stay above 20K in the near future unless it's has less mileage on it.

Worst case scenario I'd be surprised if it dipped below 20k anywhere in the next 5, maybe even 10 years. Best case scenario it becomes collectible and price goes up.

Originally Posted by imom

The M car, mine at least MSRP for $58K+, but I bought it used...it had already taken it's 50% hit the first few years as any other car would. Saying a BRZ or any other car as well except for a few rare exceptions is going to depreciate over 50%... it's no different...

Precisely my point. My advice was for anyone considering the purchase today. I wager that if you purchased an M and a BRZ today and sold them both in 5 years, you'd have less money in your pocket if you chose the FRS/BRZ. That is taking into account everything: maintenance, repairs, depreciation, etc.

Not saying it's not worth it, money is rarely our only consideration and you've brought up some great reasons why you'd choose a toyobaru. I'm actually a huge fan of that car, without it a whole generation of younger people wouldn't know how to drive a stick.

Originally Posted by templarklimek

Is the clutch valve many talk about part of the problem?

Do yourself a favor, pick up an ebay clutch stop, remove the CDV, and get vibra-technics engine mounts (look through my mod thread under my sig for details). Three cheap easy mods that will transform how the car feels.

If you want to go further: SSK, lightweight wheels and euro headers

[tcsia]

shwank and gtMc make the good point of resale- ultimately the rarity shines through. a quick search in Australia showed a market presence of only 7 cars over 3 production years, and 44 for a single year (2009) for the 370Z.

3 years ago z4mc's were going for about AUS $70k regardless of mileage, a brand new 370z went for about the same money. just looking at that cross sectionally the z4mc's are still holding up pretty well (of course there's the issue of initial depreciation of a brand new car...).

[Vanne]

Wow, tcia, yours must be the only z4mc in adl mate, I lived there for 4 years and never saw one. Awesome!!