Vorshlag camber plates

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

one thing to keep in mind is that the shim kits will increase scrub radius.
(that's if I'm interpreting things properly)

Think shims are the best way to add camber, from the literature I've read it's camber from the plates that adds to scrub radius , luckily in any event. I'm don't care!!!
Theirs so many things that effect scrub radius including lower offset wheels ect ect
So far i notice no negatives to my setup, car feels great.....

[Finnegan]

E36 M3 suspension on the Z4M. It fits. About 50 of us have these installed. It's just a set of hardened washers and bolts.

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

E36 M3 suspension on the Z4M. It fits. About 50 of us have these installed. It's just a set of hardened washers and bolts.

s2000, sorry i missed your question, yes ^^^^ this is correct.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

one thing to keep in mind is that the shim kits will increase scrub radius.
(that's if I'm interpreting things properly)

Originally Posted by Beedub

Think shims are the best way to add camber, from the literature I've read it's camber from the plates that adds to scrub radius , luckily in any event. I'm don't care!!!
Theirs so many things that effect scrub radius including lower offset wheels ect ect
So far i notice no negatives to my setup, car feels great.....

As I understand it, camber washers move the scrub radius more towards negative, not positive, and camber plates do not have an effect. That is, assuming I'm reading The Hack's post correctly. Key except below.

One of the ways to address this [moving to zero or positive scrub angle by going with lower offset wheels, e.g. ET35 not ET 42] is to increase the steering angle inclination by adding camber on the king-pin side, which on the MZ4 is possible via the addition of camber bolts. However, if the camber is only adjustable via the top mount [camber plates], adding [negative] camber isn't going to increase SAI and therefore additional offset can and most likely WILL result in poor handling characteristics.

Nevertheless, a lot of things affect scrub radius as Beedub says (offset, lowering, etc.). But I think with camber washers it's moving things in the right direction as far as a McStrut suspension is concerned.

[inTgr8r]

^ maybe I'm not thinking of this the right way, but I'm not following you.


With shims inserted on the bottom bolts the strut pivots on the upper bolt
Which in my mind decreases the angle (red lines)
Doesn't the scrub radius dimension then increase????

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

As I understand it, camber washers move the scrub radius more towards negative, not positive, and camber plates do not have an effect. That is, assuming I'm reading The Hack's post correctly. Key except below.

One of the ways to address this [moving to zero or positive scrub angle by going with lower offset wheels, e.g. ET35 not ET 42] is to increase the steering angle inclination by adding camber on the king-pin side, which on the MZ4 is possible via the addition of camber bolts. However, if the camber is only adjustable via the top mount [camber plates], adding [negative] camber isn't going to increase SAI and therefore additional offset can and most likely WILL result in poor handling characteristics.

Nevertheless, a lot of things affect scrub radius as Beedub says (offset, lowering, etc.). But I think with camber washers it's moving things in the right direction as far as a McStrut suspension is concerned.

maybe i read it wrong, either way, i ran these shims on the stock units for years and they felt great, so adding them to my clubsports isnt going to change that feel..... im using the same rims, same everything so if using the top mounts doesn't change that scrub radius, i have no problem ;-)

also i dont believe the internet 90% of the time, as mostly.... in my experience its wrong. :-)

reading this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrub_radius

im not seeing any huge pitfalls at the tiny changes were making on these cars!!

[Finnegan]

Bottom line, can't go wrong with the camber washers.

The rest, meh, who knows?

90% of the time I'm uncertain about which % of the time I'm thinking about to begin with.

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Bottom line, can't go wrong with the camber washers.

The rest, meh, who knows?

90% of the time I'm uncertain about which % of the time I'm thinking about to begin with.

agree!!!!

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Bottom line, can't go wrong with the camber washers.

The rest, meh, who knows?

90% of the time I'm uncertain about which % of the time I'm thinking about to begin with.

LOL I hear ya.

It's fun thrashing ideas around though.

[Finnegan]

Yeah, I'm not The Hack, nor am I SeanK! Both of these guys know a thing of two about these subject matters, and have just a bit of real-world experience and application to go along with that as well.

I guess my comprehension of arcane suspension matters settles it!

I defer to the experts, whose explanations still haven't sunk in.

And I'm glad we can all have a laugh while thrashing through this stuff.

Well, a laugh at least 93.693% of the time that is.

On Wednesdays.

In even numbered months.

[Beedub]

yeah its all light hearted!! i love this forum and think the guys on here are pretty awesome, partly the reason i love my zed so much is the community behind it!

[exdos]

I obtained a used set of camber plates for a Z4 in the hope that I could get them to work with my Z4MC, but unfortunately, the diameter of the strut that goes through the bearing is 2mm larger than the Z4, and I couldn't find any alternative bearings that would fit. So I'm now back to looking at the alternatives.

I'm running AC Schnitzer Racing adjustable suspension, which is essentially a Bilstein PSS9 kit, with OEM style springs at the front. I understand that Vorshlag do a camber/caster kit with spring plates which can be used with the OEM type springs, and I'm not aware of any alternatives. Can someone with these Vorshlag Camber plates please tell me if the bearings in these are solid or are they mounted in polyurethane? Do they increase NVH and are they streetable?

[Beedub]

Originally Posted by exdos

I obtained a used set of camber plates for a Z4 in the hope that I could get them to work with my Z4MC, but unfortunately, the diameter of the strut that goes through the bearing is 2mm larger than the Z4, and I couldn't find any alternative bearings that would fit. So I'm now back to looking at the alternatives.

I'm running AC Schnitzer Racing adjustable suspension, which is essentially a Bilstein PSS9 kit, with OEM style springs at the front. I understand that Vorshlag do a camber/caster kit with spring plates which can be used with the OEM type springs, and I'm not aware of any alternatives. Can someone with these Vorshlag Camber plates please tell me if the bearings in these are solid or are they mounted in polyurethane? Do they increase NVH and are they streetable?

i have a spherical bearing type TOP mount and i find they increase NVH significantly.... john, why dont you consider the turner shim kit?????

[beta]

From what I understand the regular vorshlag plates don't add NVH (the non-spherical bearing type).

As for scrub radius: Lowering the car with KWs increased my camber to about -2.5. Because of this I noticed that my scrub radius was too negative. The symptoms are that when you have uneven traction on the front wheels, the car tends to pull in one direction or the other. It also kicks harder when hitting a bump.

For a while I thought it was a alignment, I also considered the brakes. But it wasn't consistent. I re-did the alignment and it didn't help. I tested on a smooth flat road by letting go of the steering wheel and the car stayed true, so that ruled out alignment. Same with braking, on a smooth flat road I tried braking hard and noticed no pull.

Reading up on scrub radius gave me the answer, and also explained why it wasn't consistent which side pulled (I also noticed that it only happens on uneven pavement). I'll confirm once I replace my wheels with some with a lower offset (probably around ET 35). But so far it checks out.

[exdos]

Originally Posted by Beedub

john, why dont you consider the turner shim kit?????

Byron,

I've spent a lot of time modding the suspension on my Z3MC which is now adjustable F&R for all that matters. Me being me, I've examined and measured the dynamic camber change with adjustment of caster angle, and I've found that I prefer the dynamic negative camber change that you get by increasing the caster angle rather than increasing the static negative camber angle, with the advantage that the car has greater tendency to self-centering and straight-line stability.

My findings of increasing negative camber alone, were exactly as Beta has described in his posting above. In the case of the Z3MC, the OEM front top mounts are "handed" and you can get about -3 degrees of camber by swapping the top mounts L <--> R. On public roads with that much camber and bad or uneven surfaces, the car has too great a tendency to want to change direction, which requires constant driver input to correct. Also, with less static -ve camber, you get more even tyre wear.

I've got K-Mac Stage 1 camber/caster plates on my Z3MC and I'd buy some for my Z4MC, but they don't make them for this car. I want to retain some form of rubber/polyurethane bushing on the top mounts and don't want to go for solid bearings.

I'd be happy to buy some "caster plates" which would give an increased caster angle of say, 1.5 degrees, like these camber plates for the BMW E30 as found here: http://"http://dtmfiberwerkz.com/acc...ed-p-497.html" but I've not come across anything like them for the Z4MC. I'm thinking of getting a local engineering firm to make some for me. Since my suspension is height adjustable, I will be able lower the suspension to account for the thickness of the extra plate above the OEM top mount. Since it's possible to adjust front camber slightly on the Z4MC, I'd be able to fine tune the camber for the increase in caster. This solution would be the "caster" equivalent mod that the Turner shims do for camber.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by exdos

Byron,

I've spent a lot of time modding the suspension on my Z3MC which is now adjustable F&R for all that matters. Me being me, I've examined and measured the dynamic camber change with adjustment of caster angle, and I've found that I prefer the dynamic negative camber change that you get by increasing the caster angle rather than increasing the static negative camber angle, with the advantage that the car has greater tendency to self-centering and straight-line stability.

My findings of increasing negative camber alone, were exactly as Beta has described in his posting above. In the case of the Z3MC, the OEM front top mounts are "handed" and you can get about -3 degrees of camber by swapping the top mounts L <--> R. On public roads with that much camber and bad or uneven surfaces, the car has too great a tendency to want to change direction, which requires constant driver input to correct. Also, with less static -ve camber, you get more even tyre wear.

I've got K-Mac Stage 1 camber/caster plates on my Z3MC and I'd buy some for my Z4MC, but they don't make them for this car. I want to retain some form of rubber/polyurethane bushing on the top mounts and don't want to go for solid bearings.

I'd be happy to buy some "caster plates" which would give an increased caster angle of say, 1.5 degrees, like these camber plates for the BMW E30 as found here: http://"http://dtmfiberwerkz.com/acc...ed-p-497.html" but I've not come across anything like them for the Z4MC. I'm thinking of getting a local engineering firm to make some for me. Since my suspension is height adjustable, I will be able lower the suspension to account for the thickness of the extra plate above the OEM top mount. Since it's possible to adjust front camber slightly on the Z4MC, I'd be able to fine tune the camber for the increase in caster. This solution would be the "caster" equivalent mod that the Turner shims do for camber.

Your thoughts are right in line with what I'm thinking now.

My problem is the clubsports plates are camber only. (standard cfg.)
I was considering vorshlags but dont want to spend that kind of money.
The clubsports can be re-pinned to a different axis.
I'm considering setting them up for caster adj. & use shims for a static camber setting

...its on my list.

:edit:
Oops, Meant static camber not caster

[exdos]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

I'm considering setting them up for caster adj. & use shims for a static caster setting.

If you can increase caster to around 7.5 - 8 degrees (OEM = c.5.5degs) by rotating the camber plates, you'll find that a static camber setting of about -1.5 degs will give you a greater dynamic camber than adjusting camber on its own with no increase in caster.

To test this, measure the static camber with the wheels facing straight ahead, then turn the steering to full lock and then measure camber of the outer wheel and note the increase (i.e dynamic camber) you get when the caster is increased.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by exdos

If you can increase caster to around 7.5 - 8 degrees (OEM = c.5.5degs) by rotating the camber plates, you'll find that a static camber setting of about -1.5 degs will give you a greater dynamic camber than adjusting camber on its own with no increase in caster.

To test this, measure the static camber with the wheels facing straight ahead, then turn the steering to full lock and then measure camber of the outer wheel and note the increase (i.e dynamic camber) you get when the caster is increased.

Exactly what I'm looking to do.
I have a digital camber/caster gauge so I'll play around with it.

[exdos]

In order to explore the possibility of fabricating some caster plates/brackets, I would be grateful if someone could take a photo of the underside of the OEM top mounts whilst they're dismantled off your car, showing the way that the countersunk pins are positioned. If these pins were knocked out, is there enough room to thread a nut onto a bolt from a plate above, or would the upper spring plate catch on the nut/bolt? I'm afraid that I can't see the layout whilst the top mounts are on my car.

TIA.

[exdos]

BUMP!

Please can anyone help me with some photos of the OEM front top mounts? What I have in mind is like the TMS fixed camber plates for the E30 as found here: http://www.turnermotorsport.com/page...structions.pdf

I've done a drawing of a caster plate which could be used to increase caster, as below. Camber plates to my design should increase caster by up to 2.25 degrees. If the pins can be knocked out of the OEM top mounts and then be relocated in the caster plate so that nuts fasten on the underside of the top mounts above the spring perch (the same as in the TMS camber plates), then it should be possible to make these plates adjustable for caster angle rather than having a fixed caster angle. I really want to retain the OEM top mounts but also want to increase caster and this seems to be the way forward.