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      12-08-2019, 11:40 AM   #89
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I have heard that long ago in Europe they adopted internal electronic 'kill switches' on computer controlled cars, but then abandoned the concept b/c criminals were using the stop-devices for carjacking etc. Curious what folks on here would think about an expanded network of some kind of vehicle-disabling system like this. Even just for commercial vehicles, or perhaps something that required more than just a single-user device that could be compromised (like an auth/activation code from dispatch, or perhaps s/t that disabled all vehicles other than LEO's within a specific area). I know it is kind of deep-state big brother scary to think of them shutting down a car remotely, but these situations highlight the need to move beyond police tactics that rely upon physically catching and stopping criminals.
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      12-08-2019, 12:12 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I have heard that long ago in Europe they adopted internal electronic 'kill switches' on computer controlled cars, but then abandoned the concept b/c criminals were using the stop-devices for carjacking etc. Curious what folks on here would think about an expanded network of some kind of vehicle-disabling system like this. Even just for commercial vehicles, or perhaps something that required more than just a single-user device that could be compromised (like an auth/activation code from dispatch, or perhaps s/t that disabled all vehicles other than LEO's within a specific area). I know it is kind of deep-state big brother scary to think of them shutting down a car remotely, but these situations highlight the need to move beyond police tactics that rely upon physically catching and stopping criminals.
That is deep state scary, and that level of control would most definitely be difficult to implement country-wide from a logistical standpoint, would likely cause more harm than good, and would be the ultimate endgame for hackers. Imagine being with your family on a road trip when suddenly someone else takes control of your car and runs you over the cliff side.
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      12-08-2019, 12:27 PM   #91
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I was thinking a kill switch, not necessarily full vehicle control; and I think it is already being done for things like onstar or BMW mobile assistant; this would just be putting it in more cars, and allowing specific LEO access. If I worked for FedEx or UPS I'd be wanting something like that in my truck; they already track the driver movements to the foot, so no loss of privacy, why not also be able to shut down the rig? But I agree that it does bring up difficult questions.
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      12-08-2019, 12:29 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
That is deep state scary, and that level of control would most definitely be difficult to implement country-wide from a logistical standpoint, would likely cause more harm than good, and would be the ultimate endgame for hackers. Imagine being with your family on a road trip when suddenly someone else takes control of your car and runs you over the cliff side.
I don't think the manufacturers would go along with it, either silently or publicly. Its potential for abuse would far outweigh its potential benefit.
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      12-08-2019, 12:37 PM   #93
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FWIW... I live in Miami... please know that I usually side with the Police as I vote red but...

If you live in Miami and know how the police operate; it makes you highly question why there is even a police force... because they literally DO NOTHING AND ENFORCE NOTHING... in any other city; the things that I see on the daily would leave everyone either in jail or without a drivers license. It's a complete wild west with 0 enforcement. With that being said; this simply proves they were completely unprepared for the situation and should all be kicked out of the force with their leaders immediately replaced. This was an utter embarrassing shit show that will end up in an extreme legal battle... RIP to the innocent and the driver.
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      12-08-2019, 12:37 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I was thinking a kill switch, not necessarily full vehicle control; and I think it is already being done for things like onstar or BMW mobile assistant; this would just be putting it in more cars, and allowing specific LEO access. If I worked for FedEx or UPS I'd be wanting something like that in my truck; they already track the driver movements to the foot, so no loss of privacy, why not also be able to shut down the rig? But I agree that it does bring up difficult questions.
I get your point and the overall intention is public safety, but I can tell you that OnStar came and went, and we rarely utilized it. LoJack tracking more or less came and went as well. It was just so cost prohibitive or logistically cumbersome with varying degrees of success.
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      12-08-2019, 12:44 PM   #95
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FWIW... I live in Miami... please know that I usually side with the Police as I vote red but...

If you live in Miami and know how the police operate; it makes you highly question why there is even a police force... because they literally DO NOTHING AND ENFORCE NOTHING... in any other city; the things that I see on the daily would leave everyone either in jail or without a drivers license. It's a complete wild west with 0 enforcement. With that being said; this simply proves they were completely unprepared for the situation and should all be kicked out of the force with their leaders immediately replaced. This was an utter embarrassing shit show that will end up in an extreme legal battle... RIP to the innocent and the driver.
EVERYTHING is a legal battle for law enforcement. It doesn't matter WHO we shoot, WHY we shoot them, or HOW justified the shooting was, we end up taking the blame. Even if an inmate commits suicide in our jails, we, as a department/county, are liable (...or we assume liability and immediately pay out to avoid a long, drawn out court battle). I don't work for Miami PD, nor do I know how they operate, but that situation would've sucked for ANY department, even mine.......and we have the most resource dense and the largest Sheriff's Dept. in the country; third largest department in the country (...only NYPD and Chicago PD bests us in membership size).
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      12-08-2019, 02:24 PM   #96
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Yeah, I totally get that. We are all speculating here but unlike myself you actually have the the career to back up what you are saying so I'll 100% defer to your expertise here. As I've been saying its easy to sit back and comment on how it could have been done better. And maybe you are right that none of those officers had any intel on what lead to this, motive, etc. Is there not a police chief or someone in a command center of sorts that DOES have all the info at his or her fingertips that can generally guide the response of the officers on the scene? Or is is the total free-for-all that it appeared to be?
Not much for me to add here from an expertise standpoint. I have experience as an EMS first responder and things can get chaotic even with a Battalion chief on scene directing operations.

But one thing I do want to point out. It's much different but a situation where there was an overwatch command set up over operations. This is the infamous Mogadishu Black Hawk Down situation. There was a Black Hawk circling around the operation directing troop movements. Even with them collecting information and relaying it down, there was tons of confusion and many times the direction in movement wasn't fast enough in reaction to what was happening on the ground. This was based on some of the accounts I've read.

These dynamic situations with civilians involved is extremely tough where LEOs are expected to be right 100% of the time. I don't know how many professions where that's an expected requirement. Again not saying this is similar to this situation. But it was interesting watching a reality show that was on cable called Combat Missions. This show was a collection of what many would consider the elite of the elite doing simulated missions. The contestants were SEAL, Marine Force Recon, Delta, Green Beret, and some other special ops I can't remember now. But in the group where SWAT guys which I think were from LAPD. On the simulations with hostages, it was readily apparent the difference in how the SWAT guys handled the situation versus the military guys. It really gave me a different respect and perspective for all that was involved. Granted these are simulated missions/scenarios. I can't imagine how things would be in real life as real life is never predictable.
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      12-08-2019, 03:08 PM   #97
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      12-08-2019, 03:29 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
Yeah, I totally get that. We are all speculating here but unlike myself you actually have the the career to back up what you are saying so I'll 100% defer to your expertise here. As I've been saying its easy to sit back and comment on how it could have been done better. And maybe you are right that none of those officers had any intel on what lead to this, motive, etc. Is there not a police chief or someone in a command center of sorts that DOES have all the info at his or her fingertips that can generally guide the response of the officers on the scene? Or is is the total free-for-all that it appeared to be?
Not much for me to add here from an expertise standpoint. I have experience as an EMS first responder and things can get chaotic even with a Battalion chief on scene directing operations.

But one thing I do want to point out. It's much different but a situation where there was an overwatch command set up over operations. This is the infamous Mogadishu Black Hawk Down situation. There was a Black Hawk circling around the operation directing troop movements. Even with them collecting information and relaying it down, there was tons of confusion and many times the direction in movement wasn't fast enough in reaction to what was happening on the ground. This was based on some of the accounts I've read.

These dynamic situations with civilians involved is extremely tough where LEOs are expected to be right 100% of the time. I don't know how many professions where that's an expected requirement. Again not saying this is similar to this situation. But it was interesting watching a reality show that was on cable called Combat Missions. This show was a collection of what many would consider the elite of the elite doing simulated missions. The contestants were SEAL, Marine Force Recon, Delta, Green Beret, and some other special ops I can't remember now. But in the group where SWAT guys which I think were from LAPD. On the simulations with hostages, it was readily apparent the difference in how the SWAT guys handled the situation versus the military guys. It really gave me a different respect and perspective for all that was involved. Granted these are simulated missions/scenarios. I can't imagine how things would be in real life as real life is never predictable.
You make an excellent point regarding the "100% right" expectation placed on law enforcement.
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      12-08-2019, 04:17 PM   #99
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Look we can argue about this all day albeit there isnt a point... there is already an investigation on going.

All I know is from what I saw in the video and it looked incredibly dangerous and lacked tactics... Most of Miami currently feels identical to me and in the public eyes this looks extremely poor. If you have the everyday knowledge of how the police act in your local market i.e. for me Miami, it really just makes this look all the worse albeit somehow unsurprising.
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      12-08-2019, 04:23 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I was thinking a kill switch, not necessarily full vehicle control; and I think it is already being done for things like onstar or BMW mobile assistant; this would just be putting it in more cars, and allowing specific LEO access. If I worked for FedEx or UPS I'd be wanting something like that in my truck; they already track the driver movements to the foot, so no loss of privacy, why not also be able to shut down the rig? But I agree that it does bring up difficult questions.
So I'd ask the question, who get's to control the "kill switch", how is it accessed. Given that the vast majority of pursuits last less than a few minutes it's a nice idea but think of the logistics. This is very "big brother" and "hollywood" all rolled into one.
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      12-08-2019, 04:41 PM   #101
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Look we can argue about this all day albeit there isnt a point... there is already an investigation on going.

All I know is from what I saw in the video and it looked incredibly dangerous and lacked tactics... Most of Miami currently feels identical to me and in the public eyes this looks extremely poor. If you have the everyday knowledge of how the police act in your local market i.e. for me Miami, it really just makes this look all the worse albeit somehow unsurprising.
Videos aren't three dimensional. Videos don't take into account the perspective of officers on the ground. From the perspective of an uneducated citizen - and I don't mean that pejoratively - ANYTHING we do looks flawed; EVERYTHING we do has a 100% failsafe option. That is not reality.
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      12-08-2019, 04:46 PM   #102
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Videos aren't three dimensional. Videos don't take into account the perspective of officers on the ground. From the perspective of an uneducated citizen - and I don't mean that pejoratively - ANYTHING we do looks flawed; EVERYTHING we do has a 100% failsafe option. That is not reality.
I blame hollywood, TV and the movies. Everyone expects policing in the real world to look like it does on TV. Use of force is always ugly and often brutal compared to in entertainment. Is makes it very easy to armchair quarterback , add in social media, cell phone cameras and everyone is an expert and a critic.

I remember being in court and having a judge comment to me while I was giving evidence that he'd seen an episode of CSI Miami and how they did things.....I kid you not. Having to try to tell a judge the difference between hollywood and the real world was interesting.
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      12-08-2019, 04:52 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I have heard that long ago in Europe they adopted internal electronic 'kill switches' on computer controlled cars, but then abandoned the concept b/c criminals were using the stop-devices for carjacking etc. Curious what folks on here would think about an expanded network of some kind of vehicle-disabling system like this. Even just for commercial vehicles, or perhaps something that required more than just a single-user device that could be compromised (like an auth/activation code from dispatch, or perhaps s/t that disabled all vehicles other than LEO's within a specific area). I know it is kind of deep-state big brother scary to think of them shutting down a car remotely, but these situations highlight the need to move beyond police tactics that rely upon physically catching and stopping criminals.
Heres a video from February 2019 of German Police chasing a new Mazda on the Autobahn.....reality is often very far from what you might have heard.

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      12-08-2019, 06:49 PM   #104
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So I'd ask the question, who get's to control the "kill switch", how is it accessed. Given that the vast majority of pursuits last less than a few minutes it's a nice idea but think of the logistics. This is very "big brother" and "hollywood" all rolled into one.
You already know the answer. These friendly chaps and others just like them.
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      12-08-2019, 08:06 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Videos aren't three dimensional. Videos don't take into account the perspective of officers on the ground. From the perspective of an uneducated citizen - and I don't mean that pejoratively - ANYTHING we do looks flawed; EVERYTHING we do has a 100% failsafe option. That is not reality.
Again, I will not argue about this but do you know how far Miramar is from Coral Gables?... if not, I urge you to do some google mapping... it never had to go that far... this is over 20 miles of chasing on public streets.

Is this a better angle? Again, can't 100% confirm authenticity here but god damn-

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      12-08-2019, 08:11 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Videos aren't three dimensional. Videos don't take into account the perspective of officers on the ground. From the perspective of an uneducated citizen - and I don't mean that pejoratively - ANYTHING we do looks flawed; EVERYTHING we do has a 100% failsafe option. That is not reality.
Again, I will not argue about this but do you know how far Miramar is from Coral Gables?... if not, I urge you to do some google mapping... it never had to go that far... this is over 20 miles of chasing on public streets.
Is there video of the chase from genesis to termination? Are you certain that there were truly opportunities to stop the UPS box truck in a safer manner? Distance of the chase really is immaterial to me. Hell, we've had 100+ mile chases in Southern California. I'll reiterate that pursuits are unpredictable.
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      12-09-2019, 06:17 AM   #107
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Is there video of the chase from genesis to termination? Are you certain that there were truly opportunities to stop the UPS box truck in a safer manner? Distance of the chase really is immaterial to me. Hell, we've had 100+ mile chases in Southern California. I'll reiterate that pursuits are unpredictable.
I've been in pursuits that lasted less than a minute and over an hour. Nobody want's to be in one and when they are want them to stop as quickly and safely as possible. Folks always seem to think that they could do it better, regardless of their lack of experience and lack of training. Factor in weather, traffic, support, ability of the officers and their confidence in their ability. And then there's is the vehicle being pursued, the ability of the driver being pursued and all the other unpredictable factors that come up during these situations and the fact that the officers don't control any of this and can only respond as things unfold.

Being in a pursuit is not a track day, and any race car driver will tell you that pursuit driving is extremely difficult and dangerous.

This is similar to the guys who go to the range on the weekend and then are critical of the police in shootings because they didn't hit the target, never considering that it's different when someone is shooting at you vs you shooting a paper target.
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      12-09-2019, 10:30 AM   #108
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Is there video of the chase from genesis to termination? Are you certain that there were truly opportunities to stop the UPS box truck in a safer manner? Distance of the chase really is immaterial to me. Hell, we've had 100+ mile chases in Southern California. I'll reiterate that pursuits are unpredictable.
I've been in pursuits that lasted less than a minute and over an hour. Nobody want's to be in one and when they are want them to stop as quickly and safely as possible. Folks always seem to think that they could do it better, regardless of their lack of experience and lack of training. Factor in weather, traffic, support, ability of the officers and their confidence in their ability. And then there's is the vehicle being pursued, the ability of the driver being pursued and all the other unpredictable factors that come up during these situations and the fact that the officers don't control any of this and can only respond as things unfold.

Being in a pursuit is not a track day, and any race car driver will tell you that pursuit driving is extremely difficult and dangerous.

This is similar to the guys who go to the range on the weekend and then are critical of the police in shootings because they didn't hit the target, never considering that it's different when someone is shooting at you vs you shooting a paper target.
Very well said! Your range day analogy adds another layer of perspective as well.
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      12-09-2019, 10:51 AM   #109
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Factor in weather, traffic, support, ability of the officers and their confidence in their ability. And then there's is the vehicle being pursued, the ability of the driver being pursued...
You left out "donut stops."

KIDDING!!! I have loads of respect for LEOs. So thankful you folks are willing to do that job, because I sure don't want to. You deal with people on the worst days of their lives, and I wouldn't hold up well under that strain.
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      12-09-2019, 11:27 AM   #110
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Is this a better angle? Again, can't 100% confirm authenticity here but god damn-

This is what I don't understand. Why TF does everyone nowadays have to whip out their phone and start recording everything...? As soon as I heard the first gunshot, my ass would've been out of there. Do they really value having a video they can post for likes and clout more than their own life? Sad really.
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