BMW Service Quality - Why So Many Issues?

[Finnegan]

Yes, this is a car forum, and yes, there is probably some bias in that we only hear the "horror stories" about poor quality service about those who have issues.

However it seems that the number of major issues that are being disregarded as "normal operation" and major repair screw-ups seems to be increasing. I'm not talking about the "mystery rattle" kind of thing that is hard to replicate; I'm talking things like these:

1. An M3 with a DCT that stalls in lower gears (major safety issue) that is panned off as "normal operation" and which a dealership refuses (bans the owner) to fix.
2. A car that sounds like a sick untuned lawnmower that is panned off as "normal operation".
3. A car with an engine rebuild that throws CELs, has a knock sensor issue, won't idle correctly, and is in limp mode where the owner is told to "drive it anyway and wear in the valves" and given an appointment weeks out.
4. VANOS noises that are diagnosed via email and deemed "normal operation"

So, is all of this nothing new for those of you who are longtime brand owners or do we indeed have a trend here that is making the warranty and "free maintenance" more marketing than an actual benefit? If so, any insights into what's behind these issues?

[blender]

With new cars sales down, the repair shop is paying the bills at most dealerships. So, there's increased pressure/incentive to move cars quickly through the shop and collect the warranty reimbursement. IMHO the owners of 'standard model' grocery-getters don't know or care what the shop is doing; all they see is 4 years of free maintenance.

Those of us with proper sports cars NOTICE when things aren't repaired fully or correctly and we call them on it. At least I have had to do so repeatedly; I'm on visit seven for a window misalignment issue.

The shortest path to satisfaction in my opinion is to get to the Shop Foreman and request that he personally work on your car. He's theoretically the best mechanic in the building. Go with a 'Disappointed' angle rather than a 'Mad/Angry' angle. Remember, this is the guy in the best position to help you.


Good Luck!

[lucid]

I was told the dealer needs authorization from BMW NA to perform any kind of major service on a car under warranty (pulling the VANOS cover for inspection is considered major service apparently). If they proceed without such authorization, they risk getting not paid, so naturally, they won't act without authorization.

And, it seems that BMW NA is reluctant to authorize any potentially major warranty claim unless the car has simply stopped running. Honestly, that seems to be their initial response in too many cases based on my personal experiences and what people report on forums (yes, I am aware that is self-selected reporting, but that potential bias does not excuse the type of lack of or delayed service that is being reported).

It seems like if your car is having a potentially significant problem, the best thing that can happen to you is for it to fail dramatically--like a crod coming out of the engine. So, one approach is to drive it as hard as you can--without abusing it--until something really gives. Then, they'd have to fix it...

[shitbrownMcoupe]

I wrote a nasty email to bmw na.... no response.... well, like i said to the mail to bmw na.... this will be my first and last bmw... I was seriuosly consider the m5 for my wife and a family car.... so even though i don't like going to the merc e amg or audi s6... that's what i'll probably do.... the porsche pana is even more stupid... 4 bucket seats.

[Finnegan]

reclem05 and Lucid, good points (and good suggestions). Warranty work does indeed require prior authorization for the dealer or it's on their dime. The shop foreman idea is a good one too in terms of suggested approaches. Lucid, I think your right on there--if the whole engine goes that's a lot better than having them half-ass it back together (like shitbrownMcoupe is unfortunately discovering).

Given the kind of issues I see owners having these days it reminds me very much of the degradation in service quality I saw when our IT Operations were outsourced to "save money". B.S answers that don't make sense, a workforce that just follows scripts and won't listen, incompetent work, when things do work they "sort of work", and a response to most things that is "it's working normally". Maybe what we're seeing with BMW has a similar basis: perceived (but not real) cost savings. (Although I haven't heard anyone at the dealership put "kindly do the needful" on the service order....yet).

I wonder if the "free maintenance" program turned into huge money loser for BMW and the dealerships? Perhaps the dealerships being reimbursed at a lower rate for this "free" work? Typically, as I understand it, warranty work doesn't provide the same reimbursement level as customer-paid work--and I'd bet that's true for the "free maintenance" work as well. As a result, has this put pressures on the dealership (add in the economic issues around sales) resulting in workforce degradation? I wonder if dealerships have either cut salaries for experienced/seasoned workers--or simply laid them off--and/or if training/hiring standards have been lowered in an attempt to cut costs. (This would be analogous to the IT situation I described above.)

In any case, it's not doing the brand or value of the free service/warranty a lot of good. Maybe it's not affecting the overall brand that much (although I doubt that, as no one wants to come back several times for the same issue) but I think it's taking a toll on the ///M brand. ///M owners are more likely to be enthusiasts and actually know a thing or two about cars....

[Serious]

It's because BMW hires and trains technicians to plug in a computer, which tells them what to part to replace with step by step instructions how to replace it... BMW for the most part does no train techs to properly diagnose, understand, and be able to solve the complex problems these cars can sometimes have.

This isn't a knock on all BMW tech's there are some damn good ones out there but the training program doesn't tend to focus on this, its very monkey see monkey do.

It's also an effect of the new BMW's being unbelievably complex vehicles, which causes problems because many systems can cause similar failures and if the car isn't able to diagnose the problem itself, then it can be very difficult... but that isn't an excuse for things like, "oh the valves need to wear in that clicking noise and limp mode is normal blah blah blah" because despite the complexity these are still just gasoline internal combustion engines, and basic mechanic knowledge should tell anyone that a problem like that probably isn't right.

[shitbrownMcoupe]

my tech rep told me that the mechanics get paid a lower amount per hour on warranty jobs...

maybe that's how bmw head office makes sure that they aren't over paying on warranty and making money on where they're supposed to.. the after warranty jobs.

[blender]

I am getting quite the education escalating my unresolved service issue up the chain with BMW North America. I'm reiterating my post from above with new information. Here's the short version:

At any given dealer, if you have any unresolved problems whatsoever I recommend you get with your SA and specifically request that the Shop Foreman work on your car. He's the most highly trained mechanic in the building.

If problems persist, go directly to the dealer's Service Manager and get him to escalate to the Regional Factory Specialist (or "Field Specialist") and schedule a time on his next visit to look at your car. This is theoretically the best mechanic BMW's got in the field. They make rounds through a given area visiting the dealerships to fix customer issues. They are your last, best hope for resolution from BMW. Naturally BMW will not willingly give out their names/numbers because we would all pester them with problems. So the Service Manager has to schedule them.

TIPS

I recommend keeping all your service receipts/documentation plus your own notes for reference so you can inform people as required. The dealer records don't take into account your wasted time, delays, expenses, frustration, etc. so talk that up when you tell your tale, and keep your own notes in the margins of the service records.

I also recommend NOT calling BMW North America's Customer (Dis)service number unless you are completely desperate or you feel you deserve to be punished at length with apathy, sloth and hold music. You will have to escalate through two to four tiers of "support" people, each of which gets three to five business days to respond to you; so figure three weeks of limbo. Then they'll tell you the Service Manager has to make you an appointment with the Regional Factory Specialist, and offer to call him for you. See above paragraphs [beats head against wall]. In fact BMW NA *can* schedule you an appointment with the Regional Factory Specialist, (aka Regional Technical Engineer or RTE ) according to person #6 in my escalation chain, the "Western Region Escalation Manager". But she doesn't know who to call (!) So your least worst option appears to be escalating through a dealer Service Manager.

Good luck with your stealership.

[Finnegan]

Great stuff to know but it's really horrible that you had to find all of this out the hard way.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Great stuff to know but it's really horrible that you had to find all of this out the hard way.

If it saves someone else from the syndrome that's all I want. And my problem fixed, of course!

[stealth98]

Originally Posted by rclem05

If it saves someone else from the syndrome that's all I want. And my problem fixed, of course!

BMW has serious shortcomings in their service departments. 3 things about BMW you certainly need to know:

1. Unetical employees
2. Unprofossional support on production failures
3. BMW is nominated for Worst customer service award in Europe

[zBone]

If anyone is in the Indianapolis area, I've got a close personal friend that works as a service advisor at Dreyer and Reinbold BMW that I would trust 150%. PM me and I'll shoot you his name. He's a bimmer guy through and through and has owned a couple M3's and an M5 (among other bimmers).

That being said, I've had shit experiences with BMW dealerships in Cleveland (2) and Memphis (though had a good experience with Perillo BMW in Chicago).

[Loogey Clapp]

Excellent information "rclem05". Thank you!!

[DaveL--2mnycars]

Sad to see. Hope that BMW takes care and makes real changes. We have had a bunch, and each has been unique.

[gcochard]

Thankfully I've never had the "pleasure" of a warranty so I've always taken to an indy dealership save for an airbag light in my e36.

That said, they misdiagnosed a problem with the diff as wheel bearings, but I asked a leading question so I don't know how much I influenced the diagnosis.

[Finnegan]

After my original post a year and ago, it seems that issues (or lack thereof) are hit and miss based on dealerships and dealership tech skills. A lot of techs are just that, techs and not mechanics. They follow the recipes for diagnosis and correction, but lack the overall mechanical skills that sets a tech apart from a real mechanic.

In my case, I've had several warranty issues, all of which my dealer quickly and effectively took care of since my OP. Shift knob replaced, headlight (lamp and ignitor module) replaced, and a diff/axle leak repaired. The diff was a bit nerve racking, since it meant resetting the pre-load, but the tech did a great job and I've had no issues (+6M, 4 track days). Other folks, as we know, haven't had such positive results.

One tip I'll add to getting a good service experience is a nice case of beer. Yup, a 24 pack in the back of the car for the SA and the tech(s) to share after the work is done goes a long way to making sure your car gets special attention. Both the SA and the techs left me notes thanking me. Talked to the SA a bit--basically she deals with a lot of very demanding folks every day, gets a lot of anger from folks they have repair work (and a have large bill). It's a tough job. She said the techs rarely, if ever, get any kind of appreciation for their work. The few dollars the beer cost me went a very long way in setting me aside from typical customers. I'm not saying this will solve problems at a poor dealership or with poor techs, but it does ensure you're not viewed as just another demanding customer.

Lastly, while we've seen our fair share of issues here, it's nothing like the experience many Porsche customers have. Now that's a company with serious customer service and warranty issues.

After spending a good chunk of time over on P9 and related Pforums, the standard operating procedure at Porsche is to defer, delay, deny, blame and repeat--if that fails then threaten the customer with a huge yet vague bill. (E.G. they will tell you that you must pay 5-6K to tear down the engine, and if Porsche determines it's your problem--which they almost always say it is--you're stuck with that plus the replacement cost of the engine). IMS, Cayman engine failures, excessive oil use (1 quart every 600 miles is "normal"), melted steering systems, RMS, and on and on, it's always the same.

[bimmerworkshoptexas]

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[chickdr]

10yrs later!!!!

[pungo]

Originally Posted by chickdr

10yrs later!!!!

agreed, but they got their plug in...

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by chickdr

10yrs later!!!!

Timely, right?

[Huz-Z]

It’s Friday - why rush LOL!

[pungo]

Originally Posted by Huz-Z

It’s Friday - why rush LOL!

Agreed, revive it again in the next decade