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      11-14-2011, 07:22 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyfrc View Post
This and other reliability issues have me looking at a new Z06. I think I'm done with german cars for a while. A 50K rod bearing life on top of the Vanos bolt and hub issues, O2 sensor failures, and other misc problems doesn't sit well with me. Who wants to rebuild their engine every 50K as part of "routine maintenance"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyfrc View Post

Besides, GM finally fixed the seats for 2012!
I really don’t think the Pal is stating or maintaining that this is ‘routine maintenance’. If you go up to the numerous E46 M3 boards, you will find a very large number of cars that have gone over 100K miles without having their rod bearings replaced. You do have to take into account the type of driving and conditions that his car has been seening.
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      11-14-2011, 08:49 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Shipkiller View Post
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I really don’t think the Pal is stating or maintaining that this is ‘routine maintenance’. If you go up to the numerous E46 M3 boards, you will find a very large number of cars that have gone over 100K miles without having their rod bearings replaced. You do have to take into account the type of driving and conditions that his car has been seening.
Agree, one also has to take into consideration the oil maintenance; anyone following BMW's recommended maintenance, may be looking at doing something like this before 100k, without ever seeing track miles.
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      11-14-2011, 09:05 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
Agree, one also has to take into consideration the oil maintenance; anyone following BMW's recommended maintenance, may be looking at doing something like this before 100k, without ever seeing track miles.
hmmmm...... for me this is yet another motivation to use Redline
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      11-14-2011, 10:08 AM   #26
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Or just change it at 7500 like the rest of us...
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      11-14-2011, 10:28 AM   #27
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i change it yearly, which is less than 7500, by a wide margin
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      11-14-2011, 10:29 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy View Post
hmmmm...... for me this is yet another motivation to use Redline
TWS > Redline, I believe Pal has been running Greddy for a bit and it was also reported very good.
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      11-14-2011, 05:58 PM   #29
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If you change your oil as often as PAL does you can probably run EVOO although it would be a very expensive alternative. Since, like PAL, I track my Bimmer a lot my OCI is around 4,000 miles. My next fill will be with Greddy 10W-60 so we'll see what Blackstone has to say about that oil.
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      11-14-2011, 07:18 PM   #30
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Why all the hate amongst the BMW crowd twoards redline products?

They have served me well with many cars in the past and especially ones that saw track time. I'm going to try redline and do a UOA to compare to TWS but, on paper Redline looks to be a clear winner.

Compare the following and Redline has an edge over TWS:

1) ZDDP content (much higher in redline)
2). HTHS
3). 100C Viscosity
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      11-14-2011, 07:51 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyfrc View Post
Why all the hate amongst the BMW crowd twoards redline products?

They have served me well with many cars in the past and especially ones that saw track time. I'm going to try redline and do a UOA to compare to TWS but, on paper Redline looks to be a clear winner.

Compare the following and Redline has an edge over TWS:

1) ZDDP content (much higher in redline)
2). HTHS
3). 100C Viscosity
Spend some time here:

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9

The issue has been beaten to death.
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      11-14-2011, 09:33 PM   #32
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funny how my posts referencing the credentials and insights from D. Hillary from BMWCCA are quoted in the OP first post -definitive TWS thread. LOL
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      11-14-2011, 10:03 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyfrc View Post
Why all the hate amongst the BMW crowd twoards redline products?

They have served me well with many cars in the past and especially ones that saw track time. I'm going to try redline and do a UOA to compare to TWS but, on paper Redline looks to be a clear winner.

Compare the following and Redline has an edge over TWS:

1) ZDDP content (much higher in redline)
2). HTHS
3). 100C Viscosity
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=130&pcid=21
API Service Class SM/SL/SG/CF
SAE Viscosity Grade (Motor Oil) 10W60
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 25.5
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 173
Viscosity Index 182
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @*C 65@-25
Pour Point, °C -45
Pour Point, °F -49
Flash Point, °C 257
Flash Point, °F 495
NOACK Evaporation Loss,1hr @ 482°F (250°C), % 6
HTHS Vis, cP @150°C, ASTM D4741 6.7


the specs look great-- HTHS at 150C
thanks for the Blackstone OA....
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      11-15-2011, 02:27 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
Spend some time here:

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9

The issue has been beaten to death.
The issue has been argued to death.

I plan to let a Blackstone UOA decide for me rather than digging through a bunch of opinions without a single UOA. I'm not here to argue the issue but, will post a UOA with driving conditions so members of this community can evaluate it as an option.
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      11-15-2011, 03:16 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy View Post
i change it yearly, which is less than 7500, by a wide margin
Call me crazy/stupid whatever. But I change it every 3K miles. A buck 25 is one less sushi lunch and it provides me with peace of mind. Over the top, etc... But...
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      11-15-2011, 11:16 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyfrc View Post
This and other reliability issues have me looking at a new Z06. I think I'm done with german cars for a while. A 50K rod bearing life on top of the Vanos bolt and hub issues, O2 sensor failures, and other misc problems doesn't sit well with me. Who wants to rebuild their engine every 50K as part of "routine maintenance"?

Besides, GM finally fixed the seats for 2012!
Vettes are cool, but I don't think our engines are as weak as you believe. There are e46 m3's with well over 100k miles that have never had their rod bearings changed and have not experienced any problems. They may not have over 50 track days, but I'm betting a lot of cars will have to have some costly work/ preventative work done after 50 track days.
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      11-16-2011, 12:02 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyfrc View Post
This and other reliability issues have me looking at a new Z06. I think I'm done with german cars for a while. A 50K rod bearing life on top of the Vanos bolt and hub issues, O2 sensor failures, and other misc problems doesn't sit well with me. Who wants to rebuild their engine every 50K as part of "routine maintenance"?

Besides, GM finally fixed the seats for 2012!
Quote:
Originally Posted by esqu1re View Post
Vettes are cool, but I don't think our engines are as weak as you believe. There are e46 m3's with well over 100k miles that have never had their rod bearings changed and have not experienced any problems. They may not have over 50 track days, but I'm betting a lot of cars will have to have some costly work/ preventative work done after 50 track days.
The 'Vette is very nice, and a very capable car, but I don't think for one minute that after 50 track days some similar maintenance (or more) isn't going to be required. I'd see just how well those GM components stand up under this kind of use: I'd be willing to bet after 50 or so track days there's some significant expense in rebuilding or replacing components. But then again, I could be wrong. I you do that research, let us know what you find.

Actually I'm surprised at how well it's held up, and was thinking that this makes a good argument for keeping the car. Just shows how folks draw different conclusions from the same data I guess.
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      11-16-2011, 07:42 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricanbandit View Post
Call me crazy/stupid whatever. But I change it every 3K miles. A buck 25 is one less sushi lunch and it provides me with peace of mind. Over the top, etc... But...
that maintenance plan will make the next owner really really happy, and perhaps, willing to pay you more
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      11-16-2011, 07:44 AM   #39
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Part of my reason to switch is my local track(Road Atlanta) is a much better playground for high HP cars. I drove a friends C6Z06 on that track recently and while I loved the my M, I have to push it much harder to keep up pace which most certainly increases wear. In the Z I could short shift at 5k rpm and pass cars left and right. In the M that would require 7K+ rpm shifts in every gear, every time, and your right foot planted at every oppurtunity.

I think everyone here has made excellent points. I also agree with statements regarding repairs vs. track time. I'm willing to bet Z will be cheaper in the long run if track time is a factor.

Well maybe if you don't count tires.
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      12-21-2011, 10:13 PM   #40
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Sorry to necropost, but we just had a blackstone analysis of my dad's LS2 and he has lead at 22ppm, that's with 50k miles and only 1 autocross on the engine. We'll be doing a second analysis in a couple thousand miles since it's had another autocross since the oil was changed. I will post back with results.
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      12-22-2011, 07:05 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffhopper View Post
Sorry to necropost, but we just had a blackstone analysis of my dad's LS2 and he has lead at 22ppm, that's with 50k miles and only 1 autocross on the engine. We'll be doing a second analysis in a couple thousand miles since it's had another autocross since the oil was changed. I will post back with results.
Please keep us updated on this.

On an S54 note I have 2k miles to go before the Redline 10W-60 goes in. I think I will be the first to try the stuff an do a UOA. Can't find ANY useful info on the M3 forum, just lots of argument.
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      12-22-2011, 10:26 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyfrc View Post
Please keep us updated on this.

On an S54 note I have 2k miles to go before the Redline 10W-60 goes in. I think I will be the first to try the stuff an do a UOA. Can't find ANY useful info on the M3 forum, just lots of argument.
Will do.

Maybe that's why they say it's been discussed "to death" over there.

Regarding ZDDP, since that's a major point of contention with TWS, they say it can harm the catalyst, but that there are other additives (titanium based) that can reduce harm to the catalyst. For our latest V8 build, we broke the engine in with diesel oil since it contains lots of ZDDP, maybe try to find some with the right viscosity and do a UOA on that as well?

I know motul makes 10w60 diesel oil.

Here's a thread comparing levels of P and Zn in a bunch of oils:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=33841.0

And there's also this if you don't want to go with another oil: http://www.zddplus.com/
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      12-22-2011, 10:48 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffhopper View Post
Will do.

Maybe that's why they say it's been discussed "to death" over there.

Regarding ZDDP, since that's a major point of contention with TWS, they say it can harm the catalyst, but that there are other additives (titanium based) that can reduce harm to the catalyst. For our latest V8 build, we broke the engine in with diesel oil since it contains lots of ZDDP, maybe try to find some with the right viscosity and do a UOA on that as well?

I know motul makes 10w60 diesel oil.

Here's a thread comparing levels of P and Zn in a bunch of oils:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=33841.0

And there's also this if you don't want to go with another oil: http://www.zddplus.com/
I've been supplementing the ZDDP in TWS to around 1200ppm with Redline Break in additive for the past 2 oil changes.

However, its too early(miles) to tell the outcome. TWS shears quickly and that combined with lower ZDDP MAY, acclerate bearing wear if only by a small margin. Bearings are protected by hydrodynamic film strength and ZDDP as a last line of defense. Redline has an edge on paper in these two specifcs, only time and UOA will tell.
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      12-22-2011, 11:53 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyfrc View Post
Part of my reason to switch is my local track(Road Atlanta) is a much better playground for high HP cars. I drove a friends C6Z06 on that track recently and while I loved the my M, I have to push it much harder to keep up pace which most certainly increases wear. In the Z I could short shift at 5k rpm and pass cars left and right. In the M that would require 7K+ rpm shifts in every gear, every time, and your right foot planted at every oppurtunity.

I think everyone here has made excellent points. I also agree with statements regarding repairs vs. track time. I'm willing to bet Z will be cheaper in the long run if track time is a factor.

Well maybe if you don't count tires.
fully agree, the Z06 is sweet.

But sounds like you just wanna run with bigger dogs. Shouldn't be surprising that a Z4M has to be pushed harder (or can't keep up) with a Z06. these cars aren't in the same performance league.
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