Help with intermittent crank no start

kk7ds · 07-25-2022, 01:39 PM

Hi,

We have a 2006 E85 3.0si roadster that is in excellent condition all around, except for one issue. We keep this car in storage almost all of the time (and certainly all winter). We mostly bring it out for club drives, which involves going to the storage unit during the week, swapping a car, then a club drive on a weekend day, usually followed by putting it back.

We disconnect the battery while in storage and have NEVER had a problem starting it up at storage. However, many times the *next* start (in the garage the next morning, or even later that same day) will crank and crank and crank. Eventually it starts, sometimes after I've put a booster on it to help prevent the battery from getting too low, but that doesn't seem to be the immediate fix. It always happens at terrible times when we're leaving to go somewhere and don't have time to diagnose things. If I try to reproduce it, it won't. Sometimes the no-start thing manifests a few starts later than the second after storage, which is even worse, as we're usually around people at that point.

Things I've tried:

1. Replaced the battery. The crank voltage wasn't terribly low, but we replaced it with a new AGM battery at one point which didn't help (other than that it can handle longer attempts to start).
2. Tried the other key, to rule out a transponder issue.
3. Checked fuel pressure and leakage (and found no issues).
4. When it happens, I've tried cycling the key to ignition a few times before re-attempting the start (to prime the fuel pump a few times), but no difference.
6. Scanned for codes (specifically related to the security module) and found none.
5. Shouting obscenities.

I have not tried taking it to anyone (which I usually try to avoid on principle), but I suspect they'll just say "didn't happen while it was here".

Does anyone else have ideas for me? It's really hard because we drive it so infrequently, I don't know if it's really "every N starts" or "twice a week" or if it's really related to the storage. Since it seems to very often happen on the second start after coming out of storage, it surely seems related, but I can't think of why.

grannyknot · 07-25-2022, 03:19 PM

Hmmmm, is it possible that it has sat long enough that the gas has lost its kick, old gas?

The car is telling you to stop putting her in storage and drive her more.

kk7ds · 07-25-2022, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannyknot

Hmmmm, is it possible that it has sat long enough that the gas has lost its kick, old gas?

I don't think so because it starts the very first time always, and we never have any trouble with the gas once it's running (it runs fantastically well). We also put it away with a full tank plus stabilizer if it's going for more than a few weeks. It has never struggled to start once it does. Meaning, it's not like after all the cranking it sputters to life. It seems a lot more like something isn't sending spark at all, the fuel pump just isn't pushing at all, etc.

Quote:

The car is telling you to stop putting her in storage and drive her more.

Yeah, well, tell that to our other cars

Clearancediver · 07-25-2022, 07:38 PM

Adjust the clutch stop down…. Then if that doesn't make a difference….
Scan the car with INPA or ISTAD software vice a code scanner. Very few scanners are able to read BMW proprietary codes.
Check out voltage output when running. That's to ensure that there isn't something going on with alternator/voltage regulator.

Let us know the clutch stop adjustment made a difference and if scan/voltage measurements revealed anything.

kk7ds · 07-25-2022, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clearancediver

Adjust the clutch stop down…. Then if that doesn't make a difference….

It's an automatic (I know, I know).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clearancediver

Adjust the clutch stop down…. Then if
Scan the car with INPA or ISTAD software vice a code scanner. Very few scanners are able to read BMW proprietary codes.

I have the Schwaben BMW-specific scan tool. But I do have INPA so I guess I can try that, I just feel like a blind man fumbling around in INPA. It's been a while, but is there a general "tell me what's wrong" mode? I thought it was mostly the kind of thing where you had to scan specific modules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clearancediver

Check out voltage output when running. That's to ensure that there isn't something going on with alternator/voltage regulator.

Since the battery is never low, help me understand what you're thinking here. The alternator has nothing to do with starting, so unless it's running the battery down I'm not sure how this could be related?

kk7ds · 07-25-2022, 09:20 PM

Okay, apparently I'm a liar. Or the fact that this car sits for months with the battery disconnected made me think there were no codes. There are codes.

In the DME:

2F44/not present DME: EWS preventing manipulation
2AB4/not present DME: Control unit, internal fault: RAM checksum

I assume "not present" is my scan tool's method of telling me those are both historical. I think the 2F44 is the "I didn't hear from the EWS so I'm not sending fuel" code, is that right?

In the EWS:

0F Voltage supply EWS3 control module

I assume the 0F is the "your battery is low during crank" symptom that people warn about? I can check crank voltage, but it's a brand new healthy AGM and it cranks strong.

Also, potentially any of these could be related to the battery being disconnected I assume, which causes some codes to land just because the voltage drops out? I assume the scary 2AB4 code is that. I guess I should go reset codes on it and see if anything happens over the next few days before we put it back in storage...

Clearancediver · 07-25-2022, 10:59 PM

Lots of YouTube videos on how to use the BMW software…. Easy to forget if not used frequently.

Might be your fuel filter being somewhat clogged that's causing a starting issue. As it's buried in the fuel tank… make sure the tank is as empty as possible if you decide to have it replaced.

Clearancediver · 07-25-2022, 11:07 PM

Alternator…. Well my view is that you check out the electrical supply to ensure battery and alternator/voltage regulator are working as designed. Might be a stretch in your circumstances but once eliminated you can put elec issues/causes off the table. Batteries/alternators fail… have issues… ground straps can be faulty or corroded. Just because something starts but later has issues…. Doesn't mean that once an engine is warm that elec issues can't be the cause.

Thats my take…

Eliminate those first as it's easy/inexpensive to do and then delve into other causes.

bob'smerlot · 07-26-2022, 07:00 AM

Did you 'register' your new battery?

kk7ds · 07-26-2022, 08:37 AM

I did not register the battery as I thought the E85 was too old to require that. I did it for our E70, but haven't done it for any of the new batteries I've put in my E46. Even still, I thought registration was related to the charging curve and not anything that could impact starting.

I did check the running voltage at it's 14.4-14.5 as expected, so I think the alternator is good.

As far as the fuel filter: the fuel system was in my early diagnosis as well, checking for pump operation and pressure. However, as noted, it doesn't struggle to start when it does. I also think that it would be more likely that the first start out of storage would be the most impacted by the filter, not the *second*. Also, I don't think it's ever started at the end of a long crank. It's always like:

1. Craaaaaaank
2. Reset key
3. Craaaaaaank
4. Reset key
5. Cr-start.

I reset those codes last night and will try driving it to work a few times this week and see if anything re-occurs or codes pop back up.

Anyone have input on those codes in general?

Steeler · 07-26-2022, 09:56 AM

Too many failed starts makes the DME think that the car is trying to be stolen.
That doesn't explain the reason why the engine won't start though.

https://www.bimmerfest.com/threads/f...ftware.867485/

kk7ds · 07-26-2022, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

Too many failed starts makes the DME think that the car is trying to be stolen.

https://www.bimmerfest.com/threads/f...ftware.867485/

Right, that seems to be what the code means. However, every explanation of it that I've seen (including that thread you linked) is that once it gets to 2FAA, it won't ever start until the DME/EWS are resync'd. However, that's not what happens here. It always (always) eventually starts.

Clearancediver · 07-26-2022, 10:38 AM

My experience with a fuel filter was that it started on the first start of the morning and then had issues later. But that was many years ago.

Saw your new post on the other site. I would get ISTAD if you already haven't. See what codes come up. Clear codes take for a drive and see what codes reappear. Diagnosis each code to see what causes are likely for the code and follow the suggested test/fix proposed.

kk7ds · 07-26-2022, 10:54 AM

Hmm, weird about the fuel filter, but good data I guess. If the no-starts were more frequent then I'd be real keen to check it out. Also the fuel pump relay mention on the other thread is something else to check I guess. Should be an easy parts cannon thing to try.

I'll work on getting ISTA going. Is ISTA more than just a tool like INPA? Meaning, does it include more "why this code appears" and "what to do about it" sort of info? INPA (IIRC) is more like a scan tool where you can read codes and make changes, but with no help about the why (and plenty of random german dialogs).

I cleared codes last night, and "made" the wife drive it to work today. Started up no problem this morning of course. It never acts up when I'm ready for it...

elerner61 · 07-26-2022, 01:27 PM

These kind of intermittent problems are such a pain in the ass. Maybe a faulty ignition switch? They're quick and relatively cheap to replace.

https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29403

kk7ds · 07-26-2022, 01:29 PM

That might explain no crank, but crank no start?

Or are you thinking the immobilizer receiver ring around the ignition switch?

And yes, can confirm on the intermittent frustration. Even harder given how rarely we have the car out, which has led to this going on for years.

kk7ds · 07-26-2022, 01:45 PM

Ah-ha, reading through that thread, I see some people have the crank no start behavior due to the switch, so fair enough. We'll look for the indicator light signal. That's be best lead I've had so far!

I would have thought that the ignition switch's start position was just a signal to the DME to crank the starter, and that it wouldn't do that if the ignition mode wasn't already set, but that must not be how it works on these. Two of our other cars have "tip start" where you only have to signal the start position and the engine computer handles cranking until the engine is running even if you let go of the key. But not the Z4, so I guess that lines up...

Clearancediver · 07-26-2022, 05:48 PM

Ignition switch is inexpensive so changing it just to see if it fixes the problem might be something to do.

kk7ds · 07-27-2022, 09:53 AM

Yeah, I'm thinking it's probably worth just doing.

My wife reported one incident yesterday where she got no instrument lights in position 2, but they came on during and after crank. That doesn't prevent it from starting, but is very similar behavior to what would, so I think that's a good indicator.

Additional "data collection" will continue today.

I'll report back on this thread if/when we swap out the switch and what the result is. Thanks!

07-25-2022, 01:39 PM	#1
kk7ds New Member 1 Rep 22 Posts Drives: 2006 Z4 3.0si Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Portland, OR iTrader: (0)	Help with intermittent crank no start Hi, We have a 2006 E85 3.0si roadster that is in excellent condition all around, except for one issue. We keep this car in storage almost all of the time (and certainly all winter). We mostly bring it out for club drives, which involves going to the storage unit during the week, swapping a car, then a club drive on a weekend day, usually followed by putting it back. We disconnect the battery while in storage and have NEVER had a problem starting it up at storage. However, many times the next start (in the garage the next morning, or even later that same day) will crank and crank and crank. Eventually it starts, sometimes after I've put a booster on it to help prevent the battery from getting too low, but that doesn't seem to be the immediate fix. It always happens at terrible times when we're leaving to go somewhere and don't have time to diagnose things. If I try to reproduce it, it won't. Sometimes the no-start thing manifests a few starts later than the second after storage, which is even worse, as we're usually around people at that point. Things I've tried: 1. Replaced the battery. The crank voltage wasn't terribly low, but we replaced it with a new AGM battery at one point which didn't help (other than that it can handle longer attempts to start). 2. Tried the other key, to rule out a transponder issue. 3. Checked fuel pressure and leakage (and found no issues). 4. When it happens, I've tried cycling the key to ignition a few times before re-attempting the start (to prime the fuel pump a few times), but no difference. 6. Scanned for codes (specifically related to the security module) and found none. 5. Shouting obscenities. I have not tried taking it to anyone (which I usually try to avoid on principle), but I suspect they'll just say "didn't happen while it was here". Does anyone else have ideas for me? It's really hard because we drive it so infrequently, I don't know if it's really "every N starts" or "twice a week" or if it's really related to the storage. Since it seems to very often happen on the second start after coming out of storage, it surely seems related, but I can't think of why.
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07-25-2022, 03:19 PM	#2
grannyknot Captain 951 Rep 781 Posts Drives: 2008 Z4M coupe Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: toronto iTrader: (0)	Hmmmm, is it possible that it has sat long enough that the gas has lost its kick, old gas? The car is telling you to stop putting her in storage and drive her more. __________________ 2008 E86 M coupe
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07-25-2022, 07:38 PM	#4
Clearancediver Lieutenant 90 Rep 406 Posts Drives: 2004 Z4 Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Victoria, BC Canada iTrader: (0)	Adjust the clutch stop down…. Then if that doesn't make a difference…. Scan the car with INPA or ISTAD software vice a code scanner. Very few scanners are able to read BMW proprietary codes. Check out voltage output when running. That's to ensure that there isn't something going on with alternator/voltage regulator. Let us know the clutch stop adjustment made a difference and if scan/voltage measurements revealed anything. __________________ Sent from my smart phone...
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07-25-2022, 09:20 PM	#6
kk7ds New Member 1 Rep 22 Posts Drives: 2006 Z4 3.0si Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Portland, OR iTrader: (0)	Okay, apparently I'm a liar. Or the fact that this car sits for months with the battery disconnected made me think there were no codes. There are codes. In the DME: 2F44/not present DME: EWS preventing manipulation 2AB4/not present DME: Control unit, internal fault: RAM checksum I assume "not present" is my scan tool's method of telling me those are both historical. I think the 2F44 is the "I didn't hear from the EWS so I'm not sending fuel" code, is that right? In the EWS: 0F Voltage supply EWS3 control module I assume the 0F is the "your battery is low during crank" symptom that people warn about? I can check crank voltage, but it's a brand new healthy AGM and it cranks strong. Also, potentially any of these could be related to the battery being disconnected I assume, which causes some codes to land just because the voltage drops out? I assume the scary 2AB4 code is that. I guess I should go reset codes on it and see if anything happens over the next few days before we put it back in storage...
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07-25-2022, 10:59 PM	#7
Clearancediver Lieutenant 90 Rep 406 Posts Drives: 2004 Z4 Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Victoria, BC Canada iTrader: (0)	Lots of YouTube videos on how to use the BMW software…. Easy to forget if not used frequently. Might be your fuel filter being somewhat clogged that's causing a starting issue. As it's buried in the fuel tank… make sure the tank is as empty as possible if you decide to have it replaced. __________________ Sent from my smart phone...
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07-25-2022, 11:07 PM	#8
Clearancediver Lieutenant 90 Rep 406 Posts Drives: 2004 Z4 Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Victoria, BC Canada iTrader: (0)	Alternator…. Well my view is that you check out the electrical supply to ensure battery and alternator/voltage regulator are working as designed. Might be a stretch in your circumstances but once eliminated you can put elec issues/causes off the table. Batteries/alternators fail… have issues… ground straps can be faulty or corroded. Just because something starts but later has issues…. Doesn't mean that once an engine is warm that elec issues can't be the cause. Thats my take… Eliminate those first as it's easy/inexpensive to do and then delve into other causes. __________________ Sent from my smart phone...
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07-26-2022, 07:00 AM	#9
bob'smerlot Private 11 Rep 52 Posts Drives: 2004 bmw z4 3.0i Join Date: Mar 2022 Location: ohio iTrader: (0)	Did you 'register' your new battery?
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07-26-2022, 08:37 AM	#10
kk7ds New Member 1 Rep 22 Posts Drives: 2006 Z4 3.0si Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Portland, OR iTrader: (0)	I did not register the battery as I thought the E85 was too old to require that. I did it for our E70, but haven't done it for any of the new batteries I've put in my E46. Even still, I thought registration was related to the charging curve and not anything that could impact starting. I did check the running voltage at it's 14.4-14.5 as expected, so I think the alternator is good. As far as the fuel filter: the fuel system was in my early diagnosis as well, checking for pump operation and pressure. However, as noted, it doesn't struggle to start when it does. I also think that it would be more likely that the first start out of storage would be the most impacted by the filter, not the second. Also, I don't think it's ever started at the end of a long crank. It's always like: 1. Craaaaaaank 2. Reset key 3. Craaaaaaank 4. Reset key 5. Cr-start. I reset those codes last night and will try driving it to work a few times this week and see if anything re-occurs or codes pop back up. Anyone have input on those codes in general?
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07-26-2022, 09:56 AM	#11
Steeler Colonel 2428 Rep 2,704 Posts Drives: Built not Bought 04 Z4 VF Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kitchener Ontario Canada iTrader: (2)	Too many failed starts makes the DME think that the car is trying to be stolen. That doesn't explain the reason why the engine won't start though. https://www.bimmerfest.com/threads/f...ftware.867485/ __________________ W2A Intercooled Vortech V3Si, custom ducting, Alpha N, 60# Bosch,2.62 pulley, multi port WMI, Severn Tuning(pokeybritches), Tial, magnaflow,SS race muffler, 42 design,3.91LSD, H&R, Hotchkis,ST coils,Konis, Megan camber arms, AKG SS, Nylon mounts, Poly bushings, Carbon interior, CF Aero.APEX
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07-26-2022, 10:38 AM	#13
Clearancediver Lieutenant 90 Rep 406 Posts Drives: 2004 Z4 Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Victoria, BC Canada iTrader: (0)	My experience with a fuel filter was that it started on the first start of the morning and then had issues later. But that was many years ago. Saw your new post on the other site. I would get ISTAD if you already haven't. See what codes come up. Clear codes take for a drive and see what codes reappear. Diagnosis each code to see what causes are likely for the code and follow the suggested test/fix proposed. __________________ Sent from my smart phone...
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07-26-2022, 10:54 AM	#14
kk7ds New Member 1 Rep 22 Posts Drives: 2006 Z4 3.0si Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Portland, OR iTrader: (0)	Hmm, weird about the fuel filter, but good data I guess. If the no-starts were more frequent then I'd be real keen to check it out. Also the fuel pump relay mention on the other thread is something else to check I guess. Should be an easy parts cannon thing to try. I'll work on getting ISTA going. Is ISTA more than just a tool like INPA? Meaning, does it include more "why this code appears" and "what to do about it" sort of info? INPA (IIRC) is more like a scan tool where you can read codes and make changes, but with no help about the why (and plenty of random german dialogs). I cleared codes last night, and "made" the wife drive it to work today. Started up no problem this morning of course. It never acts up when I'm ready for it...
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07-26-2022, 01:27 PM	#15
elerner61 Major 157 Rep 1,107 Posts Drives: '07 Z4M Roadster Join Date: May 2011 Location: Mount Kisco, NY iTrader: (0)	These kind of intermittent problems are such a pain in the ass. Maybe a faulty ignition switch? They're quick and relatively cheap to replace. https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29403
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07-26-2022, 01:29 PM	#16
kk7ds New Member 1 Rep 22 Posts Drives: 2006 Z4 3.0si Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Portland, OR iTrader: (0)	That might explain no crank, but crank no start? Or are you thinking the immobilizer receiver ring around the ignition switch? And yes, can confirm on the intermittent frustration. Even harder given how rarely we have the car out, which has led to this going on for years.
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07-26-2022, 01:45 PM	#17
kk7ds New Member 1 Rep 22 Posts Drives: 2006 Z4 3.0si Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Portland, OR iTrader: (0)	Ah-ha, reading through that thread, I see some people have the crank no start behavior due to the switch, so fair enough. We'll look for the indicator light signal. That's be best lead I've had so far! I would have thought that the ignition switch's start position was just a signal to the DME to crank the starter, and that it wouldn't do that if the ignition mode wasn't already set, but that must not be how it works on these. Two of our other cars have "tip start" where you only have to signal the start position and the engine computer handles cranking until the engine is running even if you let go of the key. But not the Z4, so I guess that lines up... Last edited by kk7ds; 07-26-2022 at 03:39 PM..
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07-26-2022, 05:48 PM	#18
Clearancediver Lieutenant 90 Rep 406 Posts Drives: 2004 Z4 Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Victoria, BC Canada iTrader: (0)	Ignition switch is inexpensive so changing it just to see if it fixes the problem might be something to do. __________________ Sent from my smart phone...
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07-27-2022, 09:53 AM	#19
kk7ds New Member 1 Rep 22 Posts Drives: 2006 Z4 3.0si Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Portland, OR iTrader: (0)	Yeah, I'm thinking it's probably worth just doing. My wife reported one incident yesterday where she got no instrument lights in position 2, but they came on during and after crank. That doesn't prevent it from starting, but is very similar behavior to what would, so I think that's a good indicator. Additional "data collection" will continue today. I'll report back on this thread if/when we swap out the switch and what the result is. Thanks!
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