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      10-31-2008, 04:24 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
Full offense meant here, if you call someone an idiot without understanding what they are talking about, then it is, in fact, you who is the idiot.


Wheel torque is acceleration, period, there is no debating this what so ever, the values on that graph ARE acceleration. You have no comprehension of this so why don't you refrain from calling people idiots until you do.
I understand fully what I'm talking about (I'm an aero engineer finishing my masters), torque is nothing more than an applied moment on a body. If you're looking at wheel torque that's great, than you know what kind of force the wheels can put on to the road. What you're not considering here is the equation of motion for the vehicle. Since the 335i has more mass and less stiffness than the M coupe it's going to rock back under acceleration and and going to resist acceleration more. You're also failing to consider the affect of drag on the car. Just looking at wheel torque is great for 2 cars with the same shape and mass, but when you're comparing apples to oranges it doesn't work. So if you want to continue the whole idiot discussion please continue...
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      10-31-2008, 04:29 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dammmittt View Post
Since the 335i has more mass and less stiffness than the M coupe it's going to rock back under acceleration and and going to resist acceleration more.
+1, anyone with the "rear deck creak" in their 335i knows exactly what happens when squeezing the throttle
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      10-31-2008, 04:35 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dammmittt View Post
I understand fully what I'm talking about (I'm an aero engineer finishing my masters), torque is nothing more than an applied moment on a body. If you're looking at wheel torque that's great, than you know what kind of force the wheels can put on to the road. What you're not considering here is the equation of motion for the vehicle. Since the 335i has more mass and less stiffness than the M coupe it's going to rock back under acceleration and and going to resist acceleration more. You're also failing to consider the affect of drag on the car. Just looking at wheel torque is great for 2 cars with the same shape and mass, but when you're comparing apples to oranges it doesn't work. So if you want to continue the whole idiot discussion please continue...
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      10-31-2008, 04:59 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dammmittt View Post
I understand fully what I'm talking about (I'm an aero engineer finishing my masters), torque is nothing more than an applied moment on a body. If you're looking at wheel torque that's great, than you know what kind of force the wheels can put on to the road. What you're not considering here is the equation of motion for the vehicle. Since the 335i has more mass and less stiffness than the M coupe it's going to rock back under acceleration and and going to resist acceleration more. You're also failing to consider the affect of drag on the car. Just looking at wheel torque is great for 2 cars with the same shape and mass, but when you're comparing apples to oranges it doesn't work. So if you want to continue the whole idiot discussion please continue...
Sorry but I suggest you go back and look at what's going on here because you are WAY off base. We are talking about better methods to compare cars then simple HP figures, looking at wheel torque is the best method to analyze potential acceleration, are you happy now? I said potential.

And while your arguing idiotic semantics, I can and regularly do factor in weight, stiffness has little affect other then dampening the initial acceleration, once torsion takes hold it makes no difference.

Drag would be something to look at, but the published figures are rarely even close to actual and the variances between most BMWs are not big enough to make any real difference sub triple digits.



The simple point is, if you're going to compare the two cars without a super computer and a windtunnel, this is the best method.








Finally if you're training to be an engineer, why did I need to explain to you what catalytic converters are, how O2 sensors work and how headers affect a car?


http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=322197








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      10-31-2008, 05:49 PM   #49
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M is More Fun at High RPMs

I get to drive my wife's 335i on the weekends, so I compare it against my M Roadster, which I drive during the week.

The 335i is quicker (acceleration) than the M at lower RPMs. When it comes to accelerating at any RPM, in any gear, the 335i's 2-turbo is one of the best production engines I've driven in that regard.

At higher RPMS (>4500) the M becomes more serious fun than the 335i. Run the M up to 7000+ RPM in 3rd gear and listen to a mechanical symphony. Keep the M in 4th gear at freeway speeds up an 8 percent grade and you can pass anyone with ease. From 5500 - 7900 RPM the M's sound and fury make the hairs on my neck stand up.

And as far as stopping, the M's brakes outperform the 335i's - I understand they're borrowed from the outgoing M3 CSL.
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      10-31-2008, 08:58 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
Sorry but I suggest you go back and look at what's going on here because you are WAY off base. We are talking about better methods to compare cars then simple HP figures, looking at wheel torque is the best method to analyze potential acceleration, are you happy now? I said potential.

And while your arguing idiotic semantics, I can and regularly do factor in weight, stiffness has little affect other then dampening the initial acceleration, once torsion takes hold it makes no difference.

Drag would be something to look at, but the published figures are rarely even close to actual and the variances between most BMWs are not big enough to make any real difference sub triple digits.



The simple point is, if you're going to compare the two cars without a super computer and a windtunnel, this is the best method.








Finally if you're training to be an engineer, why did I need to explain to you what catalytic converters are, how O2 sensors work and how headers affect a car?


http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=322197








.

Look, calling it potential doesn't really save you (I have the potential to run a sub 10 second 100 meter, but that doesn't mean it's gonna happen), acceleration is affected by too many things. The whole point of this originally was so that you could show that the 335 was quicker. What I'm trying to tell you is that you're oversimplifying the problem.

I understand what you're trying to do, but it just doesn't work like you think it does.

I don't think you'd need a supercomputer necessarily, but I do agree with you that drag information that car manufacturers publish is completely worthless. But, saying that it doesn't make a difference until you hit triple digits is also over simplifying. When 2 cars only have a slight difference in power, a slight difference in drag could negate the power advantage that one car has over the other, and it could be noticeable as soon as 20-30 mph.

Finally, I usually admit when I don't know what I'm talking about, which is why I said I don't know what cats look like and how O2 sensor work. Engineers usually get pigeon holed into studying a specific thing, I've been lucky enough to avoid that until now, although a lot of my studies and funded research have been in vibrations. Aerodynamics is a difficult thing, and I admit that I don't work on it enough to call myself an expert, but I know what I know, and I know when some is talking out of their ass.
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      10-31-2008, 10:04 PM   #51
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I concur.... with everything in this thread.

Oh Cha definitely knows a little about what he is talking about, but then again Damnitt is pretty right on when it comes to anything physics related.

Me? I just press the pedal on the right and have fun.
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      11-01-2008, 12:02 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dammmittt View Post
Look, calling it potential doesn't really save you (I have the potential to run a sub 10 second 100 meter, but that doesn't mean it's gonna happen), acceleration is affected by too many things. The whole point of this originally was so that you could show that the 335 was quicker. What I'm trying to tell you is that you're oversimplifying the problem.

I understand what you're trying to do, but it just doesn't work like you think it does.

I don't think you'd need a supercomputer necessarily, but I do agree with you that drag information that car manufacturers publish is completely worthless. But, saying that it doesn't make a difference until you hit triple digits is also over simplifying. When 2 cars only have a slight difference in power, a slight difference in drag could negate the power advantage that one car has over the other, and it could be noticeable as soon as 20-30 mph.

I'm not looking to be "saved" I'm just trying to appease you so you will quit defacing something that works very well. You are like most guys in school for a science related degree, if there is a single variable uncovered that they know of then it must not work, even if that variable is too minor to have any affect, there were a few on the 335 board too. You need to keep yourself grounded in real life. It's an estimate, it doesn't have to be perfect, hell thats the definition of an estimate.

Did you want me to factor in driver skill as well? How about how temperature affects a turbo car vs a NA car. There is always going to be something missing, the point is to get it close enough to give an accurate estimate the majority of the time. And guess what? I've used this to compare many cars who's acceleration performance is well documented and it's never failed. I've also compared it to real life ROAD data plots I created on the 335.

The 335 vs the M coupe would be classified as a drivers race with an edge to the M coupe, but it can swing both ways. I never even said it proved the M coupe was faster, just that it can accelerate faster.


This is besides the point because the only thing left uncovered in the first place is drag (and traction I suppose but we aren't talking about cars with output that exceeds their grip), you get me drag figures and I can calculate them in (it's actually REALLY simple given that the variables are related to everything already being handled), simple fact is they will make little difference until triple digits because they are guaranteed (in the case of BMWs) to be very close.




I understand the problems you're trying to point out, but the simple fact is you're just being way over analytical.





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      11-01-2008, 03:48 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
I concur.... with everything in this thread.

Oh Cha definitely knows a little about what he is talking about, but then again Damnitt is pretty right on when it comes to anything physics related.

Me? I just press the pedal on the right and have fun.


My bottomline is always one thing...the smile factor. My car will never be the ultimate speed king (it certainly feels pretty darn slow compared to my bike). But I enjoy it tremendously. I'll even defend it against dolts, such as 99% of the N54 crowd (peak crank number worshippers). Most of all this is splitting hairs. Would be great if all would communicate on an adult level without resorting to line-crossing disparaging remarks. O-Cha certainly knows squat about effective communication, which is extremely important on a message board when that's the tool of the trade.
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      11-01-2008, 07:34 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
I'm not looking to be "saved" I'm just trying to appease you so you will quit defacing something that works very well. You are like most guys in school for a science related degree, if there is a single variable uncovered that they know of then it must not work, even if that variable is too minor to have any affect, there were a few on the 335 board too. You need to keep yourself grounded in real life. It's an estimate, it doesn't have to be perfect, hell thats the definition of an estimate.

Did you want me to factor in driver skill as well? How about how temperature affects a turbo car vs a NA car. There is always going to be something missing, the point is to get it close enough to give an accurate estimate the majority of the time. And guess what? I've used this to compare many cars who's acceleration performance is well documented and it's never failed. I've also compared it to real life ROAD data plots I created on the 335.

The 335 vs the M coupe would be classified as a drivers race with an edge to the M coupe, but it can swing both ways. I never even said it proved the M coupe was faster, just that it can accelerate faster.


This is besides the point because the only thing left uncovered in the first place is drag (and traction I suppose but we aren't talking about cars with output that exceeds their grip), you get me drag figures and I can calculate them in (it's actually REALLY simple given that the variables are related to everything already being handled), simple fact is they will make little difference until triple digits because they are guaranteed (in the case of BMWs) to be very close.




I understand the problems you're trying to point out, but the simple fact is you're just being way over analytical.





.
I see what you're doing, and I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you any more. If you think mass and drag are negligible that's fine, if you think that you're always right and everyone else is always wrong or too stupid to realize it that's fine too, I could care less what you think.

End of

To the OP, both are great cars, it just depends on what you're looking for. The 335i is probably the more comfortable car for daily driving situations, but the M Coupe is a friggin blast to drive when you get some winding/open road.
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      11-01-2008, 12:46 PM   #55
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I have an ///M Coupe and so does my brother... When we race each other its very even and our shifting speeds are very comparable ( both very fast). We got one of BMW's test cars, a 6spd sport package 335 and lined them up on the hwy for a roll on.

Shifting as fast as i could in the 335, My brother in his white ///M Coupe was able to pull about 6 cars btw us from 80mph to an indicated 167mph. We did it 3 times with the same result... ///M wins periode. Both cars were stock. The greatest gap was made everytime i shifted, whereas my bro's coupe had another 1000rpm to continue pulling the gap before he had to shift.

Now from a dig the race could go either way, just comes down to how well you launch.

On a road course i dont think there can be any comparison. You will have to spend significant money on the 335i ( coil-overs, sway bars,oil cooler, LSD) to get close to what an ///M coupe will be doing with just new tires and an alignment.

Now a 335i is is definetly more comfortable and livable. However aside from the extra seats you really dont lose anything else when it comes to practicallity. Both my bro and i have fit $200 worth of groceries in the back, and i have been able to put my 70Lbs boxer (cover retracted !) and a weekends worth of cloths in the back of my coupe.

Then if your considering a car to keep, the ///M coupe is the clear choice, there are only 1,800 in N.A. and less than 4,500 worldwide. Quite rare and unique looking...

ANd no matter what i still find the ///M fun, and i have a 600bhp 997 Turbo in our garage and while different back to back, the ///M is still a riot!
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      11-01-2008, 02:04 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dammmittt View Post
To the OP, both are great cars, it just depends on what you're looking for. The 335i is probably the more comfortable car for daily driving situations, but the M Coupe is a friggin blast to drive when you get some winding/open road.
+1 . . . And now that things seem to have calmed down, and that all the technical barrages appear to have subsided, I would like to add my 2 cents:

The two cars are very different, and to argue about which is "faster" is, as we can see, not convincing either side. My only point is that comparing to MC to a 335 is ludicrous. To the general public, the 335 looks like every other 3 series. Although we as BMW nuts may appreciate the technology in the 335, to most people, it really is just another small sedan.

On the other hand, the MC is truly singular in design. It is fantastically unique. On this fact alone, it stands alone above the entire BMW line up. IT IS THE LAST OF THE TRUE M CARS. The last BMW to use a standard key, it is the last of an already "dead" breed of performance cars. In other words, they don't make them like this anymore. The S54 is recognized around the world of street performance and professional race teams as one of the greatest and most indestructible NA engines ever built.

My answer to the 335 crowed is this: When was the last time anyone chased you down the highway to take a cell phone photo of your 335? How about trying to wash your 335 at a spray wash, but being continuously approached by other car washers saying things like: "Wow, I 've never seen that car before!" or "that's the baddest BMW I've ever seen!". Nope, I doubt it. Has anyone ever photographed your 335 as it sits next to a Lambo in Beverly Hills? All of these things are common occurrences when you drive an MC (and if you like parking next to Lamborghinis in Beverly Hills).

I know this is an old topic, but I think the MC is destined to remain a very unique automobile, especially with the way things (i.e. Prius) are going. So, to compare the MC to one more variant of the pedestrian 3 series, no matter how "fast" the 335 may be, does not make sense.

Last edited by MTHEORY; 11-01-2008 at 11:34 PM..
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      11-01-2008, 02:17 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post


My bottomline is always one thing...the smile factor. My car will never be the ultimate speed king (it certainly feels pretty darn slow compared to my bike). But I enjoy it tremendously. I'll even defend it against dolts, such as 99% of the N54 crowd (peak crank number worshippers). Most of all this is splitting hairs. Would be great if all would communicate on an adult level without resorting to line-crossing disparaging remarks. O-Cha certainly knows squat about effective communication, which is extremely important on a message board when that's the tool of the trade.
Maybe it is just a bike rider thing then... My bike is faster than all of your guys' cars (but slower than MVFRriders probably)

Quote:
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...you drive an MC (and if you like parking next to Lamborghinis in Beverly Hills).
I don't I am afraid of getting a door ding
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      11-01-2008, 02:55 PM   #58
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Maybe it is just a bike rider thing then... My bike is faster than all of your guys' cars (but slower than MVFRriders probably)
Probably?
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      11-01-2008, 05:11 PM   #59
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Wow, thank you guys! lol
last few comments of MTHEORY and BAMMERED (after the short "engines/speed war) highlighted great points identifying important issues like design, uniqueness, engine, etc, that are the most valuable to me, (after the performance) since I consider myself a purist and a BMW loyal fan, and would love to own one of the last real M's with a unique design as well.

The last comment will be that at the end of the day we have to conclude that we all are different and have a unique subjective perspective of "feeling" and "sensations" that translate in satisfaction or love for one or the other, plus the "rationale" factor that also for some are to have 2 extra seats and for others is to have an M engine. Both factors are unique as well in each car and does not make one better than the other.

I guess we all have different timing and needs in life. Sometimes we want a BMW, or need 2 more seats, or simply it is the passion to drive and listen the pipes screaming.

Thanks again for the advice and comments and I'm pretty sure that I'll be very happy with the MC. The hunt starts in 6 months. I will keep you all posted about the outcome.
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      11-03-2008, 11:49 PM   #60
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I don't care about who's fast or not
my car looks much better than Z4
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      11-03-2008, 11:54 PM   #61
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      11-04-2008, 01:00 AM   #62
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Umm, not with that wing, it doesn't.
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      11-04-2008, 01:11 AM   #63
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Umm, not with that wing, it doesn't.
"I believe I can fly" with that wing

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      11-04-2008, 01:32 AM   #64
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I really don't see much point to compare 2 seat sports cars to 4 seat sport coupes anyway. They are really two different animals regardless if engine displacement and/or power output is near the same.
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      11-04-2008, 01:45 AM   #65
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I really don't see much point to compare 2 seat sports cars to 4 seat sport coupes anyway. They are really two different animals regardless if engine displacement and/or power output is near the same.
+1
I was a just playing with you guys
I really like the style of Z4 only thing I did not buy it because I need rear seats

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      11-04-2008, 04:57 AM   #66
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+1
I was a just playing with you guys
I really like the style of Z4 only thing I did not buy it because I need rear seats
Gumulri, put a chip in your car. Saw one on 'Pass Time' that was stock other than being chipped and turned a 12.3 sec 1/4 mile. Wish the Z's could be chipped and have the same result, but they don't.
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