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      01-12-2021, 03:20 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by MJE60 View Post
Absolutely correct and this no doubt is what put incredible pressure on both Alex and Pierre. Both drivers have talent but being a team mate to either Max or Lewis takes a certain mental stamina. I cannot wait to see the dynamics with PER and who is tougher.
I agree and hope the best for Perez. I also say I am not a huge fan of Max but he is good driver and helped make the season far more interesting. I was hoping he would do better, just for a better race. If there were two Albon's on the RB team I would have fast forwarded even more.

I think Perez has a better chance than Alex and Pierre, partly because of his age and the point of his career he is in now. Both Alex and Pierre were far younger and I think have much greater ambitions than Perez has at this point. He also seems far calmer and doesn't get upset when things seem to fall apart. If Perez has a bad year and for some reason can't get another F1 drive it wouldn't be the same crushing defeat that it is for Gasly or Albon.
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      01-12-2021, 04:33 PM   #24
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Every driver wants to beat their teammate, they are the one that is most closely matched in equipment and the best way to judge a driver on his ability.
That is F1, 101.

I'm talking about the incredible Verstappen bias in the team. RIC was treated poorly and GAS as well ALB were not treated any better. Darth Marko and company put all of their eggs in the VER basket which is what was done with VET vs WEB. It worked out with VET but has been a shambles with VER.
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      01-12-2021, 04:56 PM   #25
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That is F1, 101.

I'm talking about the incredible Verstappen bias in the team. RIC was treated poorly and GAS as well ALB were not treated any better. Darth Marko and company put all of their eggs in the VER basket which is what was done with VET vs WEB. It worked out with VET but has been a shambles with VER.
With his ability and age I would call him the leader of the team. Any real evidence of treating these others badly? MB doesn't treat Hamilton and Bottas equally (nor should they), but I don't think they treat Bottas poorly.

They seemed to stand up for Albon to the end when I don't think there would have been much blame with replacing him in Sept. Again, he didn't come anywhere close to Maxx in results and I think RB wanted him to do much better and had many financial incentives to this happening.
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      01-12-2021, 05:19 PM   #26
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With his ability and age I would call him the leader of the team. Any real evidence of treating these others badly? MB doesn't treat Hamilton and Bottas equally (nor should they), but I don't think they treat Bottas poorly.

They seemed to stand up for Albon to the end when I don't think there would have been much blame with replacing him in Sept. Again, he didn't come anywhere close to Maxx in results and I think RB wanted him to do much better and had many financial incentives to this happening.
giving the very same car d be good start for Red Bull.. Merc' does that each race each season.. thats why Bottas dreams about being a champion each season's early parts until he understands he wont able to handle Lewis..

beating Max is something and not having a chance to beat Max is something else.. but i really dont think if the same thing occurs Perez ll suck it up.. he ll speak publicly (hopefully) and things will get spicy.. and he wont have to leave the team like a loser.. Gasly and Albon left that seat like a wreck...
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      01-13-2021, 04:11 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post

I'm talking about the incredible Verstappen bias in the team. RIC was treated poorly and GAS as well ALB were not treated any better. Darth Marko and company put all of their eggs in the VER basket which is what was done with VET vs WEB. It worked out with VET but has been a shambles with VER.
It seems to me that Red Bull have been trying to emulate the successful Schumacher Ferrari years.
Its not that they actively try to screw their second driver (that was just a bit of hyperbole) they just aren't that bothered about him...as you noted above they pick a driver to be their #1 and he gets the best of everything and the other driver gets the brown end of the stick.
You'd think that with all the years of data [1], the computer modelling and all the thousands of simulator hours purposed to create the baseline set up for any particular track...that both the Red Bull drivers would end up with a similarish set up...but that simply hasn't been the case.
Its not like Albon had years of F1 experience to rely on, to help develop his set up from the baseline...he was a rookie in the team (with few races completed in F1)...how the hell did he end up with such a dramatically different set up (at nearly every race) to his team mate who has years of experience in the car. It makes no sense.

One exception was the second race at the Red bull track where Verstappen and Albon had identical max speeds and Albon had a decent race...finishing 4th.

When Hamilton arrived at McLaren as a rookie he got the baseline set up and any changes that Alonso made during practice and raced with it. Right up until Alonso started getting grumpy about it and wanted to stop Hamiltons side of the garage having access to his data.



[1] Having seen the success of Mercedes (and this years Racing point) with a long wheelbase low rake car design you have to wonder if Red Bull might feel they have to follow suit and ditch their short wheelbase case with near 2 degrees of rake. The downside is of course that the years of track data they have with the current design goes in the bin.
On the other hand having watched the RPs improved through the season they might feel its worth it.

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      01-13-2021, 08:08 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
It seems to me that Red Bull have been trying to emulate the successful Schumacher Ferrari years.
Its not that they actively try to screw their second driver (that was just a bit of hyperbole) they just aren't that bothered about him...as you noted above they pick a driver to be their #1 and he gets the best of everything and the other driver gets the brown end of the stick.
You'd think that with all the years of data [1], the computer modelling and all the thousands of simulator hours purposed to create the baseline set up for any particular track...that both the Red Bull drivers would end up with a similarish set up...but that simply hasn't been the case.
Its not like Albon had years of F1 experience to rely on, to help develop his set up from the baseline...he was a rookie in the team (with few races completed in F1)...how the hell did he end up with such a dramatically different set up (at nearly every race) to his team mate who has years of experience in the car. It makes no sense.

One exception was the second race at the Red bull track where Verstappen and Albon had identical max speeds and Albon had a decent race...finishing 4th.

When Hamilton arrived at McLaren as a rookie he got the baseline set up and any changes that Alonso made during practice and raced with it. Right up until Alonso started getting grumpy about it and wanted to stop Hamiltons side of the garage having access to his data.



[1] Having seen the success of Mercedes (and this years Racing point) with a long wheelbase low rake car design you have to wonder if Red Bull might feel they have to follow suit and ditch their short wheelbase case with near 2 degrees of rake. The downside is of course that the years of track data they have with the current design goes in the bin.
On the other hand having watched the RPs improved through the season they might feel its worth it.
Apathy towards a person is actively screwing them in any business setting and as you well know, F1 is just another business setting. If these were two salespersons it would be like giving one incorrect sales information to take to the client.

The worse thing is that this is their standard behavior and as you so aptly stated, they seem to be trying to emulate the Ferrari model which, at first glance seems good, but is actually so damaging and yields substandard results.

The Mercedes way is the way forward.

Cheers, my friend-mk
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      01-13-2021, 08:18 AM   #29
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So much speculation, only thing needed is some proof, like so much of what happens in life.

Driver standings - RB

2010 Vettel 1 Webber 3
2011 Vettel 1 Webber 3
2012 Vettel 1 Webber 6
2013 Vettel 1 Webber 3
2014 Ric 3 Vettel 5 ------- How could they not sabotage driver #2 so that Vettel would come out on top?
2015 Kyvat 7 Ric 8 ------- How could driver they let driver #2 come out ahead
2016 Ric 3 Verstappen 5
2017 Ric 5 Ver 6
2018 Ver 4 Ric 6------- Again, driver #2 came out on top, how could it happen?
2019 Ver 3 Albon 8 ----------Unlike almost every other year driver #2 isn't even close
2020 Ver 3 Alban 7 --------------Once again the figured out how to have driver #2 not even close

So many years the two drivers are neck and neck, sometimes the driver that came in 2nd on the team one year came out ahead next year, suddenly Albon can't come anywhere close to Verstappen and of course it is sabotage and RB wanting him to fail

In the last 11 years, 3 times the second place driver on the team was more than 2 spots behind the lead driver. Albon was two of them. The evidence shows that most of the time the two drivers end up very close in the overall standings, Albon seems to be the odd one out when it comes to the team competitions for the last 11 years.
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      01-13-2021, 09:36 AM   #30
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I think Albon tried his best with all the settings at his disposal together with the array of new parts available he had to try like Max but he just could not get on with the way the car had to be driven to stay close to the Mercs. He had every opportunity to race and was on the cusp of winning a race with a superb tyre strategy until HAM egregiously pushed him off the track.
Looking at easy going calm Helmut and pushy short tempered hand swinging Toto Wolff it would be fair to say RB was the more easy going team of the two.
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      01-13-2021, 10:10 AM   #31
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I think Albon tried his best with all the settings at his disposal together with the array of new parts available he had to try like Max but he just could not get on with the way the car had to be driven to stay close to the Mercs. He had every opportunity to race and was on the cusp of winning a race with a superb tyre strategy until HAM egregiously pushed him off the track.
Looking at easy going calm Helmut and pushy short tempered hand swinging Toto Wolff it would be fair to say RB was the more easy going team of the two.
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      01-13-2021, 10:37 AM   #32
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      01-13-2021, 10:46 AM   #33
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So many years the two drivers are neck and neck, sometimes the driver that came in 2nd on the team one year came out ahead next year, suddenly Albon can't come anywhere close to Verstappen and of course it is sabotage and RB wanting him to fail
So you are going for Red Bull being a totally even handed team that never favours one driver over another.
Fair enough...I suspect some of their past drivers might see it differently though.
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      01-13-2021, 10:47 AM   #34
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      01-13-2021, 11:24 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
So you are going for Red Bull being a totally even handed team that never favours one driver over another.
Fair enough...I suspect some of their past drivers might see it differently though.
Absolutely.

I'll just leave this here.

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      01-13-2021, 11:30 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
So much speculation, only thing needed is some proof, like so much of what happens in life.

Driver standings - RB

2010 Vettel 1 Webber 3
2011 Vettel 1 Webber 3
2012 Vettel 1 Webber 6
2013 Vettel 1 Webber 3
2014 Ric 3 Vettel 5 ------- How could they not sabotage driver #2 so that Vettel would come out on top? Change in formula. No blown diffusers. VET exposed as a one trick pony.
2015 Kyvat 7 Ric 8 ------- How could driver they let driver #2 come out ahead A true anomaly.
2016 Ric 3 Verstappen 5
2017 Ric 5 Ver 6
2018 Ver 4 Ric 6------- Again, driver #2 came out on top, how could it happen? The moment Max signed in October of 2017, everything changed. They put all of their efforts behind him and we see the results.
2019 Ver 3 Albon 8 ----------Unlike almost every other year driver #2 isn't even close
2020 Ver 3 Alban 7 --------------Once again the figured out how to have driver #2 not even close

So many years the two drivers are neck and neck, sometimes the driver that came in 2nd on the team one year came out ahead next year, suddenly Albon can't come anywhere close to Verstappen and of course it is sabotage and RB wanting him to fail

In the last 11 years, 3 times the second place driver on the team was more than 2 spots behind the lead driver. Albon was two of them. The evidence shows that most of the time the two drivers end up very close in the overall standings, Albon seems to be the odd one out when it comes to the team competitions for the last 11 years.
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      01-13-2021, 11:55 AM   #37
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Comments in Red.
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      01-13-2021, 11:59 AM   #38
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Oh, I can make a document bleeeeeeeeeeed!!!
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      01-13-2021, 12:09 PM   #39
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Self inflicted, Alex just couldn't hack it that's all there is to it.To suggest that Helmut is some kind of scheming boss that gave him negligible parts is silly, certainly wasn't given Max's tyres by mistake
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      01-13-2021, 12:13 PM   #40
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Self inflicted, Alex just couldn't hack it that's all there is to it.To suggest that Helmut is some kind of scheming boss that gave him negligible parts is silly, certainly wasn't given Max's tyres by mistake
Scheming boss? Lol. Here he is in all of his glory!!

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/r...ove-22378.html
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      01-13-2021, 12:20 PM   #41
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So you are going for Red Bull being a totally even handed team that never favours one driver over another.
Fair enough...I suspect some of their past drivers might see it differently though.
Totally even, no, Verstappen gets preferential tire/stop strategy. If there is a new upgrade that is only available to one driver Verstappen gets it. If both were on the track with Albon ahead of him he would be asked to move over ().

Verstappen is the lead driver. The sabotage idea lacks any proof, most of the time both teammates finish very close to each other, and I can't see a motive for 3rd and 7th in RB's eyes. I think they wanted it to be 3 Max, 4th Albon.

So you are going with the idea that from the beginning RB signed Albon, gave him a poor setup, planned for his failure, kept him as he failed, then gave him another contract as the failure worked as planned?

For the "lots of past drivers might see it differently" - Lots of people that come in 2nd believe there was a grand scheme that caused their failure as many can't accept defeat. Vettel said his failure this year wasn't his fault, it was the team. Interesting idea but highly unlikely.
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      01-13-2021, 12:23 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Scheming boss? Lol. Here he is in all of his glory!!

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/r...ove-22378.html
At the time VET was ahead in the championship as said in your piece and there was no time to discuss it with WEB is what Christian said, but I can understand how WEB felt and if there's only one mk2 wing to go around then... executive decisions sometimes hurt.
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      01-13-2021, 12:47 PM   #43
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Scheming boss? Lol. Here he is in all of his glory!!

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/r...ove-22378.html
From the article -

the team let the Australian know that his car's newly-developed front wing will go to his teammate Sebastian Vettel for the weekend, which brought the Aussie's frustrations to a high sky level.

They gave the best wing to the driver leading the driver standings. Not even close to the idea that they purposely sabotage one drivers car so he will fail.
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      01-13-2021, 12:58 PM   #44
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Verstappen is the lead driver.
I don't have a problem with that...just give Albon a fair go.

Give the rookie Verstappens set up, then sink or swim its down to him.
Suggesting that Albon extra low downforce set up was his choice is not easy to believe
Albon had one of his best races in 2020 early in the season was when he had a similar downforce set up to Verstappen.
Why then ask for a lower downforce set up for the rest of the season.
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