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      12-24-2020, 05:04 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by yco View Post
from the footage its clear that Prost makes a very late defense steers into crash since with that line he wont even able to take the chicane cause he d jump over the kerb at least with the belly of the car like that.. late dive is something, late defense is something else.. if there are some footage about makes Prost's move "legit" i d like to see really?
Senna was even less likely to make the turn unless Prost about drove off the track to avoid him.
Anyway you have your thoughts on the incident and I have mine...I don't think either of us is likely to change our minds about it.
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      12-25-2020, 01:40 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Senna was even less likely to make the turn unless Prost about drove off the track to avoid him.
Anyway you have your thoughts on the incident and I have mine...I don't think either of us is likely to change our minds about it.
no i mean really would like to see anything that clears Prost in that case.. cause back in time i ve looked for all angles of the incident but it s very limited everything was pointing Prost clearly.. if you have data/video/pic about this i d like to see..
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      12-25-2020, 05:22 AM   #25
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Prost moved to the left before the bend for one reason, to end it there and then.
He knew Senna would get him if he continued, the bend was Prost's from the outset.Even if Senna continued not taking the escape road Balestre would dsq Senna for causing a collision.
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      12-26-2020, 04:55 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by yco View Post
no i mean really would like to see anything that clears Prost in that case.. cause back in time i ve looked for all angles of the incident but it s very limited everything was pointing Prost clearly.. if you have data/video/pic about this i d like to see..
Everything is on Prosts side not least because he was ahead.
Throwing your car down the inside from a long way away leaving your opponent a choice between driving out of the way or being crashed into, in no way puts the blame on Prost because he chose not to be bullied out of the way.
Prost as the leading driver is entitled to turn in to the chicane early or late, as he chooses.
Had the roles had been reversed Senna would have driven into Prost without a moments hesitation.
Prost was on the whole a very fair racer while Senna OTOH was not. Senna's signature move was let me pass or crash.
He was an amazingly talented driver but not that great a sportsman.
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      12-26-2020, 06:13 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Everything is on Prosts side not least because he was ahead.
Throwing your car down the inside from a long way away leaving your opponent a choice between driving out of the way or being crashed into, in no way puts the blame on Prost because he chose not to be bullied out of the way.
Prost as the leading driver is entitled to turn in to the chicane early or late, as he chooses.
Had the roles had been reversed Senna would have driven into Prost without a moments hesitation.
Prost was on the whole a very fair racer while Senna OTOH was not. Senna's signature move was let me pass or crash.
He was an amazingly talented driver but not that great a sportsman.
Senor at least for me defending your positioning and crashing into "defensive" tackle is something else..

but if you re on Prost's side, it means you re defending Schumacher on Damon Hill - Schumi incident as well?

and since its the same tackle.. Schumacher's move on Villeneuve that almost broke Jacques' car.. same move what Prost did.. deliberate action to hit.. if you re saying leading car can make damaging defense its something, but that not sportmanship..

and for sportsmanship part.. he risked his own life solely for another driver.. its a very heavy accusation for such a driver that did something like this.. lets remember this...

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      12-26-2020, 07:06 AM   #28
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Good group of flamboyant, dominate, and popular (thought I'd insert this photo...momentarily interrupting the discussion/argument)...
Back row : James Hunt, Jackie Stewart, Denny Hulme
Front row: Nelson Piquet, Juan Manuel Fangio, Ayrton Senna, Jack Brabham
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      12-26-2020, 07:22 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by 3798j View Post
Good group of flamboyant, dominate, and popular (thought I'd insert this photo...momentarily interrupting the discussion/argument)...
Back row : James Hunt, Jackie Stewart, Denny Hulme
Front row: Nelson Piquet, Juan Manuel Fangio, Ayrton Senna, Jack Brabham
Great pick 3798j -
This covers the 1950's - 1990's....such incredible F1 pilots and such incredible skills.
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      12-26-2020, 03:28 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yco View Post
Senor at least for me defending your positioning and crashing into "defensive" tackle is something else..
[...] if you re saying leading car can make damaging defense its something, but that not sportmanship..
What you are forgetting is that Senna had to win that race and win the next one too...to win the championship
Coming second at Suzuka simply wasn't an option.
His kamikaze move at the chicane was his last chance roll of the dice.
Either Prost gave up the corner and Senna took the lead or he nerfed Prost out of the way or they both were out of the race.
Senna had simply nothing to lose.

As it happens it became irrelevant to the championship as Senna crashed out of the next race.
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      12-26-2020, 04:52 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yco View Post

when you pause at 0:23.. its obvious that Prost wont able to make the chicane in that line unless his car can jump though..
The normal (non inboard) footage also shows that Prost forces Senna on the grass just at the point that Senna is not quite next to him.
Senna's already on the grass when they touch.

If Prost didn't want Senna to pass, he should have closed the gap earlier, say at the entrance of the pits (senna sneeks up to him at that part of the circuit and Prost realizes his mistake that he then bluntly tries to correct)
I think the FIA would have handeled it also differently nowadays as how they handled it back than wasn't quite right imho.

Never cheered for Prost....
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      12-27-2020, 12:43 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
What you are forgetting is that Senna had to win that race and win the next one too...to win the championship
Coming second at Suzuka simply wasn't an option.
His kamikaze move at the chicane was his last chance roll of the dice.
Either Prost gave up the corner and Senna took the lead or he nerfed Prost out of the way or they both were out of the race.
Senna had simply nothing to lose.

As it happens it became irrelevant to the championship as Senna crashed out of the next race.
yes Senna had nothing to lose but Prost had a championship to lose.. so you re saying Prost steered into crash because he had so much to lose?

130R is a very fast corner.. considering they have the same power and braking force, overtaking Prost d be different than the attack Senna did to Nannini of course..

at least for me kamikaze dive should be hopeless but Senna was already nearly side to side with Prost before chicanes kerb.. and onboard clearly shows Prost sees Senna inside..

but i really wonder Senor.. do you consider the other examples i gave above.. for you they re right as well?
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      12-27-2020, 03:48 AM   #33
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Quote:
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but i really wonder Senor.. do you consider the other examples i gave above.. for you they re right as well?
I guess my position was always that a driver should not be forced to steer out of the way of another one to avoid being crashed into unless they are completely alongside each other.
At the time of impact both cars are approaching the chicane at a similar speed, side by side, but crucially Prost is ahead...the onus is therefore always on Senna to brake harder since he knows it is inevitable that Prost will turn in to the apex. Senna chooses to take the chance that he will somehow come out of it ahead otherwise the DWC is lost regardless of the outcome of the next race.
I guess also if you dislike Prost then you are going to see the incident differently...same if you were not a Senna fan.
For me I think there was an element of poetic justice that Senna lost that championship due to some harsh driving tactics by Prost...something that Senna had no qualms at all about using whenever it suited him.

Trying to make comparisons with other incidents is always going to be tricky.
Schumacher got away with deliberately crashing into Hill in Australia after hitting the wall and coming slowly back onto the track waiting for Hill to get alongside. It is a comparable incident?..well not at all except that it decided the championship.
Similar Villeneuve Schumacher...Villeneuve was already past when MS decided to make that double turn of the steering wheel into JV...not really a comparable incident either....although there was that same poetic justice that MS ended up in the gravel and lost the championship.
A closer incident would be Leclerc on Perez when they recently collided but no one is saying that it was Perez's fault?
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      12-27-2020, 06:53 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I guess my position was always that a driver should not be forced to steer out of the way of another one to avoid being crashed into unless they are completely alongside each other.
At the time of impact both cars are approaching the chicane at a similar speed, side by side, but crucially Prost is ahead...the onus is therefore always on Senna to brake harder since he knows it is inevitable that Prost will turn in to the apex. Senna chooses to take the chance that he will somehow come out of it ahead otherwise the DWC is lost regardless of the outcome of the next race.
I guess also if you dislike Prost then you are going to see the incident differently...same if you were not a Senna fan.
For me I think there was an element of poetic justice that Senna lost that championship due to some harsh driving tactics by Prost...something that Senna had no qualms at all about using whenever it suited him.

Trying to make comparisons with other incidents is always going to be tricky.
Schumacher got away with deliberately crashing into Hill in Australia after hitting the wall and coming slowly back onto the track waiting for Hill to get alongside. It is a comparable incident?..well not at all except that it decided the championship.
Similar Villeneuve Schumacher...Villeneuve was already past when MS decided to make that double turn of the steering wheel into JV...not really a comparable incident either....although there was that same poetic justice that MS ended up in the gravel and lost the championship.
A closer incident would be Leclerc on Perez when they recently collided but no one is saying that it was Perez's fault?
Senor problem starts with that.. Prost wasnt expected to be forced out the way.. he steered into way for a very late blocking.. i dont know how much earlier before the turn starts in meters wise but it looks quite a lot since its a heavy braking chicane.. that initiated the accident.. with that line he must jumped over the curb as well since it was only the braking phase..

for double checking what im saying.. you can see Senna's braking distance.. when they were both stationary they were side by side.. a kamikaze wont able to stop like along side with the car in front.. they have the same machinery so one of the variables is eliminated as well..

for bias part.. actually no.. back in the days when i started to know Senna and Prost, things that happened, politics, characters all those stuff made me dislike Prost.. this behaviour at Suzuka only was something and then running to his political friend at that time to DQ Senna made it even worse..

i gave those examples cause again MS was the car in front.. you re basically saying, car in front shouldnt be forced out the way.. well if the car in front steers into way very late, it ll be on the way anyway.. just like Prost and MS's case.. it cant be a clear line to distinguish.. closing door is not what Prost or MS did in those incidents..

or in other terms the car behind must disappear if there is a late blockage at that speed.. but its impossible there ll be a crash.. and if someone sees the car behind and does that very late.. it ll be a deliberate crash what else it can be..

Perez and Lec's incident is not the same Perez didnt even see Lec on his mirrors.. Prost was checking his mirrors he knew Senna is inside outbraking him.. its a different scenario.. we can dive to that also but it ll blur out Senna - Prost talk i believe..
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      12-27-2020, 10:43 AM   #35
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Senor problem starts with that.. Prost wasnt expected to be forced out the way.. he steered into way for a very late blocking.. i dont know how much earlier before the turn starts in meters wise but it looks quite a lot since its a heavy braking chicane.. that initiated the accident.. with that line he must jumped over the curb as well since it was only the braking phase..
for double checking what im saying.. you can see Senna's braking distance.. when they were both stationary they were side by side.. a kamikaze wont able to stop like along side with the car in front.. they have the same machinery so one of the variables is eliminated as well..
for bias part.. actually no.. back in the days when i started to know Senna and Prost, things that happened, politics, characters all those stuff made me dislike Prost.. this behaviour at Suzuka only was something and then running to his political friend at that time to DQ Senna made it even worse..
Imagine that Prost hadn't turned towards the apex how do you see it playing out?
For me...As Senna was close to the edge of the track the only way he can make the chicane is if Prost doesn't turn in at all.
It seems that its how people discern the individual intentions of the drivers that dictates who they see as more at fault.
For me it was classic Senna...pass or crash, as I've described earlier.
For Prost its much harder...Prost was not a dirty driver, he rarely got involved in incidents.
At Suzuka he has a simple choice, turn in as was his right...or not turn in and likely be unable to make the chicane until Senna has past him.
I think Prost made the right choice.
All the crap that went on with Jean-Marie Balestre afterwards was just out or order.
Mosley in later years was even worse.

The Schumacher crashes don't mirror the Suzuka one that much.
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      12-27-2020, 01:13 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Imagine that Prost hadn't turned towards the apex how do you see it playing out?
For me...As Senna was close to the edge of the track the only way he can make the chicane is if Prost doesn't turn in at all.
It seems that its how people discern the individual intentions of the drivers that dictates who they see as more at fault.
For me it was classic Senna...pass or crash, as I've described earlier.
For Prost its much harder...Prost was not a dirty driver, he rarely got involved in incidents.
At Suzuka he has a simple choice, turn in as was his right...or not turn in and likely be unable to make the chicane until Senna has past him.
I think Prost made the right choice.
All the crap that went on with Jean-Marie Balestre afterwards was just out or order.
Mosley in later years was even worse.

The Schumacher crashes don't mirror the Suzuka one that much.
Senna and Prost stopped side by side Senor as i ve said actualy even Prost stopped a bit further.. it shows how would it end up otherwise Senna should ve been much further since he wouldnt able to stop the car.. its plain psychics.. another way to double check, almost like a second before they re at the same speed approaching the chicane.. track camera shows that..

and lets note that a year before Senna, overtook 6 cars alone in opening lap in Suzuka, from 14th to 4th place in 4 laps.. that guy knew how to overtake.. and a year before he overtook Prost at the same track and got his championship.. you can understand how desperate a year later Prost was in '89..

and Prost beaten by 1.4 seconds in the same car in Monaco quali is Senna's raw speed for me.. and shows how desperate Prost is willing stop Senna from overtaking even if it means a deliberate crash..

according to Prost, its always something else, the car, the tires, teams, mechanics, fuel, other drivers or the track.. its never Prost's fault interestingly..

and more importantly Prost's last race that Senna won.. Senna pulled Prost to the top step near him.. you can see how big hearted, greater racer Senna is.. and a sportsman.. when you compare them sorry but Prost doesnt mean that much to me side by side with Senna in the bigger picture.. cause there are a lot more examples to give actually...

anyway alright it seems like we re not going anywhere, just like i ve said at the beginning we can agree to disagree Senor cheers..
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      12-27-2020, 01:40 PM   #37
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Well said -

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Rush is a great movie...I'm sure I have it on DVD somewhere.
Was never much of a Lauda fan when he was racing but more recently at Mercedes he seemed like a super nice guy...sadly missed.
That year was the first year I paid attention to F1.
Indeed, a great movie.
The scenes of Lauda and Hunt as competitors but also as friends was great.
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      12-27-2020, 04:15 PM   #38
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[...]
anyway alright it seems like we re not going anywhere, just like i ve said at the beginning we can agree to disagree Senor cheers..
Indeed...as I said earlier we all used to argue the crash every which way on Usenet newsgroups at the time and never found any agreement.
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