BMW M Performance Driving School Uninsured - You Break It, You Bought It

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

I know this might seem overly coincidental, but we just started our annual business insurance policy review on 6/15. I was on a call with our broker, and I took some time to inquire about this with a guy who I trust.

With the disclaimer that he had zero experience with "track day" insurance, he suggested that I consider an umbrella, and was kind of surprised that I hadn't already looked in to one in a general sense. He said that anyone who owns a home, or who has accumulated a decent net worth should consider one. He also mentioned that depending on who the policy is written with, it may even cover property damage.

I looked in to a bit, and it looks like GEICO's umbrella policy would be a good starting point:

https://www.geico.com/information/ab...ance/umbrella/

You would, of course, need to make sure that the policy doesn't exclude track days, and that it doesn't follow-form of any existing auto insurance policy.

I have an umbrella policy and took a look at it when someone else (possibly miamiten) mentioned umbrella policies earlier in the thread. The way my particular policy is written is that it provides additional liability coverage after my auto policy limits are exhausted and requires stated minimum coverage levels to be in place for the auto policy for the umbrella coverage to be effective. So I read that as no coverage under auto policy means no coverage under umbrella.

I just looked at the Geico link and it seems like it may offer the same thing as mine (i.e. coverage above existing limits, not coverage where you have none to begin with, other than for things like libel, slander, etc.):

Provides additional liability coverage above the limits of your homeowners, auto, and boat insurance policies. This protection is designed to kick in when the liability on these other policies has been exhausted.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

if you don't feel that you can attend this sort of event without wrecking a vehicle, despite the traction control being on, then by all means I'd rather you stay home as well!

Sounds like that waiver is already doing its job

maybe that is the real intent of the waiver!

[omasou]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

It's remarkable how everyone completely looks past this and shrugs their shoulders. I mean, I get it that BMW doesn't have a history of pursuing this, but putting agreements in front of people and asking them to sign them when you know that they aren't compliant is such bullshit.

Take a Skip Barber course. Similar waivers.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

I have an umbrella policy and took a look at it when someone else (possibly miamiten) mentioned umbrella policies earlier in the thread. The way my particular policy is written is that it provides additional liability coverage after my auto policy limits are exhausted and requires stated minimum coverage levels to be in place for the auto policy for the umbrella coverage to be effective. So I read that as no coverage under auto policy means no coverage under umbrella.

I just looked at the Geico link and it seems like it may offer the same thing as mine (i.e. coverage above existing limits, not coverage where you have none to begin with, other than for things like libel, slander, etc.):

Provides additional liability coverage above the limits of your homeowners, auto, and boat insurance policies. This protection is designed to kick in when the liability on these other policies has been exhausted.

Exactly. Insurance companies aren't stupid. I've had an umbrella policy for many years, and as you state, it will only cover liability (whether property or injury to others) above the limits of the other policies. Since in NC the liability limit for *any* activity at a track or high speed driving, etc, (I quoted it way above) is specifically limited to $30k, the limits of the automobile policy will never be met ($500k) in order for the umbrella to kick in. They got around umbrella policies being useful in a very crafty manner.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by masou

Take a Skip Barber course. Similar waivers.

Skip Barber courses provide an option for participants to buy a liability limit:

http://skipbarber.com/wp-content/upl...-4-28-2014.pdf

http://skipbarber.com/wp-content/upl...amage-form.pdf

BMW does not do the same thing.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Skip Barber courses provide an option for participants to buy a liability limit:

http://skipbarber.com/wp-content/upl...-4-28-2014.pdf

http://skipbarber.com/wp-content/upl...amage-form.pdf

BMW does not do the same thing.

Then you're absolutely right. It would be nice if BMW helped pre-negotiate similar coverage for their participants.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by masou

From my understanding that accident was the result of the ti design. The load unload going through the slalom loaded up the springs and flipped the car.

This is actually true. Although some of the same phenomenons were present in other vehicles using the HA1 Rear Axle, the E36/5 was susceptible to all of them at once along with another ugly issue. The car always would lift-off snap oversteer in corners and if the compressed rear spring was loaded to the max, it typically would bind. If the rotation was stopped with counter steering, this would cause a "tank slapper" and rotation in the opposite direction would begin. Where it went really bad was when the sprung load (the chassis weight) was within a certain range, it's natural harmonic frequency would come into conflict with the load reversal rate on the unsprung mass and pop the car up on two wheels.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Alanis might not understand irony, but this guy sure does.

Again, someone who this waiver will NEVER apply to think they are the authority on this stuff.

Go home. If you don't think you can go through a M school without wrecking one of their cars, don't go. I've stated this as clearly as anyone can, even for a 5 year old to understand.

The waiver is in place to weed out people like you. Those that can't possibly fathom going through a simple driving school and is afraid that they'll need to pay for the cars they WILL wreck. And the waiver is put in place for those that intend to drive like douches and a-holes to remind them that if you do stupid sh*t on track and wreck one of our cars, we CAN hold you responsible, although, in the likely event, probably won't.

So for the likes of YOU all to sit here and parse this to the Nth degree is meaningless and pointless. Frankly for someone to be so f**king stupid as to actually have the waiver kick in on them at one of the BMW M Schools, they would have done something pretty stupid and egregious to warrant it. You stay within the rules, do what you're suppose to do there, and if by chance sh*t happen to you, when you've followed every one of their rules? NFW they'd come after you for the damage (again, unless it's on other facilities they don't own). You go out there intent on destroying the car by turning left when the instructor tell you to turn right on purpose? You bet your sweet @ss that your willing negligence will result in consequences and said waiver is going to bite you.

So, reiterate. If you're so concerned that THIS waiver will apply to you as to cancel a school you've paid money for? You don't need to apply. Seriously, this waiver is put in place for people like YOU. If you actually do something stupid enough to warrant this waiver kicking in? This waiver is for people like YOU. Either way, people who shouldn't, wouldn't, or COULDN'T attend is weeded out so they don't have to coddle, cuddle, and muddle with prima-donna wannabe hypochondriac racers.

And since you are still sitting here parsing this waiver to the Nth degree, it's done it's job. You and those who still sit here fretting over having to pay for damages to BMW M School's property and have to pay isn't going to go anyway.

I rest my case.

[RickFLM4]

If this is what you're going for, great job!

[zx10guy]

I have an umbrella policy too through State Farm. They would only issue the umbrella after I raised the liability limits on my auto policies to 250/500k. The umbrella would only kick in after I had crossed that threshold. I have homeowners and condo policies with State Farm too. Not sure when the umbrella would kick in if either of those policies were invoked for liability. I'll have to check with my agent.

[orangeglim]

For me, it's not so much that I'm worried about wrecking one of BMW's cars. That's not likely to bankrupt me or my family. It's the personal liability that could potentially cause some serious financial issues. No, if I took the class I wouldn't intentionally do anything to harm a person or property. However, they're called "accidents" for a reason, most people don't plan (I assume?) to get into one. All it takes is for someone to get hurt and you could be facing serious financial liability for which your normal insurance wouldn't cover. That's the problem and concern I have.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by masou

The CCA events are great and I don't wish to take away from there benefits but the weekend cost are not your only costs.

- accommodations
- track insurance - optional
- track pads/rotors - optional but recommended
- brake flush - required
- tech inspection - required
- wear and tear to tires, brakes, rotors, sock tower mounts, trailing arm bushings, thrust arm bushings, etc. - expected

If you can maintain your own brakes those costs are parts vs. parts and labor.

EOD Driver's school is way more expensive than the fee.

That's nice, I do my own labor so my operating costs are as cheap as I can find parts for. Other stuff wears somewhat, but varies from car to car. For example: my strut towers don't implode on their own. If yours do, sorry to hear about that. Folks are blowing track based wear and tear way out of the water. More than the fee, sure, but it's not going to be 2 grand a weekend. Also, staying in a 5 star accomodation in fucking SPARTANBURG isn't quite a selling point on the cost for me. I wasn't born with a silver spoon up my ass, if it's got a good bed, is clean, and the AC works, it's a quality hotel. Accomodation quality in that town as a perk? Really? Hahahaha. Price is a total joke unless you get coverage for the car you're driving (within reasonable limits of responsibility) as part of it. And I would never be comfortable signing up knowing that it's my ass by default unless they decide to be benevolent and give me a pass.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Again, someone who this waiver will NEVER apply to think they are the authority on this stuff.

Go home. If you don't think you can go through a M school without wrecking one of their cars, don't go. I've stated this as clearly as anyone can, even for a 5 year old to understand.

The waiver is in place to weed out people like you. Those that can't possibly fathom going through a simple driving school and is afraid that they'll need to pay for the cars they WILL wreck. And the waiver is put in place for those that intend to drive like douches and a-holes to remind them that if you do stupid sh*t on track and wreck one of our cars, we CAN hold you responsible, although, in the likely event, probably won't.

So for the likes of YOU all to sit here and parse this to the Nth degree is meaningless and pointless. Frankly for someone to be so f**king stupid as to actually have the waiver kick in on them at one of the BMW M Schools, they would have done something pretty stupid and egregious to warrant it. You stay within the rules, do what you're suppose to do there, and if by chance sh*t happen to you, when you've followed every one of their rules? NFW they'd come after you for the damage (again, unless it's on other facilities they don't own). You go out there intent on destroying the car by turning left when the instructor tell you to turn right on purpose? You bet your sweet @ss that your willing negligence will result in consequences and said waiver is going to bite you.

So, reiterate. If you're so concerned that THIS waiver will apply to you as to cancel a school you've paid money for? You don't need to apply. Seriously, this waiver is put in place for people like YOU. If you actually do something stupid enough to warrant this waiver kicking in? This waiver is for people like YOU. Either way, people who shouldn't, wouldn't, or COULDN'T attend is weeded out so they don't have to coddle, cuddle, and muddle with prima-donna wannabe hypochondriac racers.

And since you are still sitting here parsing this waiver to the Nth degree, it's done it's job. You and those who still sit here fretting over having to pay for damages to BMW M School's property and have to pay isn't going to go anyway.

I rest my case.

Ok, Perry Mason. Way to kill it.

FWIW, I've been to the BMW PC twice, and I signed the waiver both times. I'm not particularly risk averse. I've signed lots of agreements that scared me. This doesn't change the fact that it's unethical to ask people to sign an agreement you can be reasonably confident they're violating at the moment they sign it.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

That's nice, I do my own labor so my operating costs are as cheap as I can find parts for. Other stuff wears somewhat, but varies from car to car. For example: my strut towers don't implode on their own. If yours do, sorry to hear about that. Folks are blowing track based wear and tear way out of the water. More than the fee, sure, but it's not going to be 2 grand a weekend. Also, staying in a 5 star accomodation in fucking SPARTANBURG isn't quite a selling point on the cost for me. I wasn't born with a silver spoon up my ass, if it's got a good bed, is clean, and the AC works, it's a quality hotel. Accomodation quality in that town as a perk? Really? Hahahaha. Price is a total joke unless you get coverage for the car you're driving (within reasonable limits of responsibility) as part of it. And I would never be comfortable signing up knowing that it's my ass by default unless they decide to be benevolent and give me a pass.

Not saying that we need to stay in a fancy hotel or that $4K for a 2 day event is a bargain. I am saying for those that don't know it is disgenuious to imply that a driver school is only the cost of the fee. There are other outright cost and future costs that need to be taken into consideration and everyone should be aware of what they are getting and the cost for both options, so that they can make an informed decision.

On my E36M3, I replaced 4 sets of rear shock tower mounts w/in 60K and not a lot of autocross and minimal driver's school. Parts were cheap and so was my labor. Others that tracked more than myself rip out the rear trailing arm not from neglect but b/c we didn't know to watch for it until it happened to a few folks.

[MN2///M]

Originally Posted by miamiten

This is actually true. Although some of the same phenomenons were present in other vehicles using the HA1 Rear Axle, the E36/5 was susceptible to all of them at once along with another ugly issue. The car always would lift-off snap oversteer in corners and if the compressed rear spring was loaded to the max, it typically would bind. If the rotation was stopped with counter steering, this would cause a "tank slapper" and rotation in the opposite direction would begin. Where it went really bad was when the sprung load (the chassis weight) was within a certain range, it's natural harmonic frequency would come into conflict with the load reversal rate on the unsprung mass and pop the car up on two wheels.

Now that sounds fun!

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by MN2///M

Now that sounds fun!

Thankfully I never had to experience it in the car. And it was still a rare occurrence that needed all the lines to intersect. First time I saw it from behind it wasn't totally clear (car had already departed the pavement). Second time I saw it, I wanted to know what the deal was. Looked like a pneumatic jack had fired off. From then on if I had a student in an E36/5/7 in a corner where the suspension was heavily loaded, if it began to spin, it was both feet in, center the wheel, and wait for friction or something solid to end the ride. Much rather hit something with the car upright than on its side.

[Jono2112]

Originally Posted by miamiten

Thankfully I never had to experience it in the car. And it was still a rare occurrence that needed all the lines to intersect. First time I saw it from behind it wasn't totally clear (car had already departed the pavement). Second time I saw it, I wanted to know what the deal was. Looked like a pneumatic jack had fired off. From then on if I had a student in an E36/5/7 in a corner where the suspension was heavily loaded, if it began to spin, it was both feet in, center the wheel, and wait for friction or something solid to end the ride. Much rather hit something with the car upright than on its side.

Has anyone come up with a fix for this design...peculiarity? Maybe 200lbs of sandbags in the trunk??

[omasou]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Skip Barber courses provide an option for participants to buy a liability limit:

http://skipbarber.com/wp-content/upl...-4-28-2014.pdf

http://skipbarber.com/wp-content/upl...amage-form.pdf

BMW does not do the same thing.

Thought about this a bit more...complete conjecture...and disclaimer that I only play a lawyer on Internet forums

Perhaps BMW made the disclaimer so stringent and all encompassing to give them the choice for what and when they will seek reimbursement and as long as they haven't invoked it, yet, that we know of, there isn't precedent of inconsistent application of the clause.

Where as the SB, etc. required them to apply the rules equally (consistently) to everyone, meaning everyone must pay for any accident.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Jono2112

Has anyone come up with a fix for this design...peculiarity? Maybe 200lbs of sandbags in the trunk??

Suspension tuning is as intricate and complex as things get in automotive tuning. My experience is limited to the armchair sort, composed of reading up on suspension tuning theory, some spreadsheets, and sim racing, so take my insights with a grain of salt. Mostly I just enjoy the topic, so I figured I'd share a little. I'm no authority.

Changing the sprung mass would affect the roll frequency for a given spring rate, but will have other detrimental affects; especially if you increase the rear weight bias. With a coil bound setup at the rear, more mass in the rear would be a particularly bad idea. Ask classic 911 drivers with worn out rear springs about that one

I'm not at all familiar with the HA1, but if my interpretation of miamiten's comment is correct, the condition is just a consequence of the car's suspension geometry. A suspension that is coil bound at the rear relies on (or at least results in, if it's not intentional) spring overloading for body motion control. This type of setup is prone to oversteer at the limit, because you run out of rear travel before the front. No travel = loss of traction, so the rear loses traction before the front, which is an oversteer recipe.

In a street car, your options for changing this are very limited. You could adjust damping to mitigate the tank slapper condition, but any adjustment to the rear must be accounted for at the front or you just make things worse (tighter damping at the rear = more oversteer).

[Jono2112]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Suspension tuning is as intricate and complex as things get in automotive tuning. My experience is limited to the armchair sort, composed of reading up on suspension tuning theory, some spreadsheets, and sim racing, so take my insights with a grain of salt. Mostly I just enjoy the topic, so I figured I'd share a little. I'm no authority.

Changing the sprung mass would affect the roll frequency for a given spring rate, but will have other detrimental affects; especially if you increase the rear weight bias. With a coil bound setup at the rear, more mass in the rear would be a particularly bad idea. Ask classic 911 drivers with worn out rear springs about that one

I'm not at all familiar with the HA1, but if my interpretation of miamiten's comment is correct, the condition is just a consequence of the car's suspension geometry. A suspension that is coil bound at the rear relies on (or at least results in, if it's not intentional) spring overloading for body motion control. This type of setup is prone to oversteer at the limit, because you run out of rear travel before the front. No travel = loss of traction, so the rear loses traction before the front, which is an oversteer recipe.

In a street car, your options for changing this are very limited. You could adjust damping to mitigate the tank slapper condition, but any adjustment to the rear must be accounted for at the front or you just make things worse (tighter damping at the rear = more oversteer).

It sounds like the engineers and designers either get it right the first time or it's really hard to adjust a flawed car. It took Porsche fifty years to get the 911 suspension to work with most of the mass hung out past the back wheels. Even the mid engine top of the line Caymen GT4 has been accused of too much under steer and it's a "perfect" mid engine design.
I'm very happy with the balance of oversteer and under steer I get with my M235i, but I've never pushed it hard enough to find the flaws that require camber plates, coilovers, race bushings, or parts from M3s that lots of people resort to. I doubt I will. It's just fun to drive everyday.
Back in the day I had an 83 944 and redid the suspension with Bilsteins in the front, konis in the back, aluminum A-arms with aftermarket ball joints, and polyurethane bushings. I think I got the build idea from the Rennlist, and ended up with amazing handling. If only it had the hp to use it all.

[David70]

Originally Posted by N & M

I wanted BMW to comment on criticisms of it passing the entire liability to its customers in a customer goodwill environment and why it chose to adopt this policy.

Only one qualified from BMW to post on the intent of the waiver and how they enforce it would be BMW Corporate's Legal Department, no chance they would come on a Forum and say anything. No benefit to them with a lot of possible downside.

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

You appear to lack the mental capacity required to understand the fundamental issue raised, but thanks for the almost interesting story of how you damaged a Nissan. I don't have any interest in trying to explain it to you or going another round of pointless debate. Hopefully you limit acting like an arrogant douche bag to your internet posts, although somehow I highly doubt it.

X2, he damaged a Nissan's roll bars and they didn't charge him for it, great.

I can understand the overall liability waiver from BMW's standpoint (personal, structures, other damage besides the car) and not being responsible for everything you could possibly do but I don't understand why they can't provide additional insurance for the cars they provide. They know the value of the cars being used, have run the classes long enough to know the risk, totaling the cars costs them a lot less than it does the customer (they get it at cost), and if people here are correct and they really don't ever go after people for the damage then collecting additional money is only a profit center with no downside. I would feel a lot better driving a $70k car knowing that I was insured, even if there was a $5k deductible.

If someone told me I could drive their $70k car around a parking lot, virtually no chance of an accident but there wasn't any insurance coverage on it (mine or his), I wouldn't drive it, regardless of the super low risk.

I have done HDPE events without insurance, but with a car worth roughly $6k, I looked at the risk and could afford to walk away from the car.

I am surprised at the number of people that sign things with the theory that it will never be used against them, especially when the main evidence is random people on the internet assure them that it hasn't happened to them.

[Outlaw 06]

As many others have already pointed out in this 175+ post thread, the BMW Performance Center’s “Complete Release and Waiver of Liability, Assumption of Risk and Indemnity Agreement" is certainly fulfilling a vital function for BMW. It’s effectively screening and weeding out drivers who are overly anxious about crashing somebody else’s expensive car(s) on a track.

Those who’ve tracked and/or raced cars before know that such standard track waivers are required to be signed by participants before being allowed on any race track. Participants must also sign additional waivers that are required by their sanctioning body and/or event organizer. Many of these waivers are required to be signed daily by the participant. Not only are drivers responsible for damages to their car, but also for track damage, and maybe even the other guy's car that they hit too. That’s just the way it is…