Roadster to Coupe: 3.0si or M?

[baege]

Originally Posted by vt100

Even after owning R8?!

I was considering switching to R8 (manual though) for some time

I wish had the E86 in addition to all the other cars I have enjoyed since

I have a special emotional attachment to the E86 that I dont have for any other car

its just fits me and speaks to me in a way no other car has, I miss having a car with that kind of intangible it factor

I hope to get one again one day

[baege]

Originally Posted by wdb

I would keep them all. I just don’t have the storage capacity. So when I get the itch I have to make room.

same there are a few cars I really enjoyed I wish I coulda kept

for me its

1989 mustang lx 5.0 notchback
1991 300zx
the e86 (of course)
the M2 competition
the cayman GTS 4.0 manual

all great cars that offer different kinds of fun and I wish I had them now

[baege]

Originally Posted by Piper1

Hate to put a jab in here though but that also means the marketing team did its job Sorry was in sales way too long couldn’t resist.

When I was looking at maybe selling my really modded non m e85 and e82 128 to go down to 2 cars keeping my lightly modded e86 si I drove a M240 and was shot gun in a buddies ogM2. Power aside there’s still no where near the engagement in the M240 I drove and shotgun in the m2 I just felt meh compared to a stock e86 nonM. They were both nice cars don’t get me wrong but to me not worth giving up either of my Z4s for. Maybe adding but not taking place of.

I was even worried if I made the wrong decision when I had the ess s/c put on my e85 thinking should I have sold it and just got a M. I drove a MR shortly after and they’re two different beasts but to me not one better than the other, just different. While yes the z4m is that special something I haven’t regreted one bit doing what I did 11 years ago with my e85. The only reason I keep thinking to down size cars is that pesky rationalizing why I need two z4s. It’s ear to ear smiles in both every time thats why I’ve still stuck with what I have.

It’s been beat to death about the over saturation of the M in everything that there’s just not that special touch anymore, least in my opinion as again that topics been beat to death about the brand whether you’re of the same ideology or not.
The e85/86 z4 was for the most part pre saturation as there’s been thoughts from new owners to the platform here get confusion on which they read about terms of M or M sport or sport suspension or non sport terms. Thank goodness thats about the only labels we have to deal with on vindecoder for non Ms having anything in terminology. I’m so thankful we have sport button on or off and traction control features we do and not have to go to sport, sport +, sport ++ or what ever that is marketed throughout the auto industry now.

Don’t even get me started on my rant on the goat modes on our bronco. I still want to know the genius at ford that thought sport should be a mode you get to before slippery. Imagine in snow and ice going from normal or eco to have to go through sport to get to slippery. We got it for off roading wtf I know waaaaay off topic but as a whole thats how the industry has gone over saturation on marketing, M included.

ha ha I mean who doesnt fall for marketing

see thing is for a long time I didnt buy into the whole M car marketing thing...I had the SI E86 and loved it and enjoyed the m240i as well and thought M cars are not all that different

and when I was looking at e86s I drove both M and SI versions and didnt feel that much difference, in fact I do actually prefer the N52 over the S54 in some ways (smoother and more buttery feel, maybe a little more torquey in the low end)

when I was considering the M2 Comp when I had my m240i, I thought the M comp wont be that different is it really worth it, but it was very different and much more fun to drive and more of an occassion

to be fair the difference between and SI E86 and a M might be less than the m240i and M2 comp but as a weekend sports car I think the M still would be the right choice

that said If I come across a nice SI manual E86 I wont hold out for an M!

[Phillies8008]

Whether or not the Z4 M is "better" than the regular models really just depends on what you're looking for. If you want something that's closer to a cruiser, that's not the M – it's a sports car full time with the ride to go with it. If you want something that can be both sedate and more aggressive, that's not the M – it's aggressive all the time.

The M is much better for what I want. But what I want isn't what everyone wants, which is fine. That's why Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors. And at the end of the day if you're driving a non-M Z4 you're still getting one hell of a car, so it's a win-win.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Piper1

Hate to put a jab in here though but that also means the marketing team did its job Sorry was in sales way too long couldn’t resist.

When I was looking at maybe selling my really modded non m e85 and e82 128 to go down to 2 cars keeping my lightly modded e86 si I drove a M240 and was shot gun in a buddies ogM2. Power aside there’s still no where near the engagement in the M240 I drove and shotgun in the m2 I just felt meh compared to a stock e86 nonM. They were both nice cars don’t get me wrong but to me not worth giving up either of my Z4s for. Maybe adding but not taking place of.

I was even worried if I made the wrong decision when I had the ess s/c put on my e85 thinking should I have sold it and just got a M. I drove a MR shortly after and they’re two different beasts but to me not one better than the other, just different. While yes the z4m is that special something I haven’t regreted one bit doing what I did 11 years ago with my e85. The only reason I keep thinking to down size cars is that pesky rationalizing why I need two z4s. It’s ear to ear smiles in both every time thats why I’ve still stuck with what I have.

It’s been beat to death about the over saturation of the M in everything that there’s just not that special touch anymore, least in my opinion as again that topics been beat to death about the brand whether you’re of the same ideology or not.
The e85/86 z4 was for the most part pre saturation as there’s been thoughts from new owners to the platform here get confusion on which they read about terms of M or M sport or sport suspension or non sport terms. Thank goodness thats about the only labels we have to deal with on vindecoder for non Ms having anything in terminology. I’m so thankful we have sport button on or off and traction control features we do and not have to go to sport, sport +, sport ++ or what ever that is marketed throughout the auto industry now.

Don’t even get me started on my rant on the goat modes on our bronco. I still want to know the genius at ford that thought sport should be a mode you get to before slippery. Imagine in snow and ice going from normal or eco to have to go through sport to get to slippery. We got it for off roading wtf I know waaaaay off topic but as a whole thats how the industry has gone over saturation on marketing, M included.

I guess I'm just numb because I've never been able to tell the difference between my Z4si Coupe's "sport" mode vs. non-sport mode other than it screws with my throttle-to-clutch muscle memory. I can't for the life of me tell any difference in the steering and I live where every road is a racetrack and the tarmac is grainy.

And the same goes for my Bronco Black Diamond between its Sport mode and Normal mode. Maybe the steering is slightly more stiff but it really doesn't help drive it any faster. And the same with the throttle, it screws with my muscle memory.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

Whether or not the Z4 M is "better" than the regular models really just depends on what you're looking for. If you want something that's closer to a cruiser, that's not the M – it's a sports car full time with the ride to go with it. If you want something that can be both sedate and more aggressive, that's not the M – it's aggressive all the time.

The M is much better for what I want. But what I want isn't what everyone wants, which is fine. That's why Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors. And at the end of the day if you're driving a non-M Z4 you're still getting one hell of a car, so it's a win-win.

As a long-time BMW enthusiast (before ///M was a thing), ///M cars have always been perplexing to me. I used to drive a lot, so putting lots of miles on an overly expensive BMW just never made financial sense either for the buy-in cost or the extra maintenance cost. My only experience with an ///M is my friend Phil's E30 M3 Cabrio. He was the first US citizen to import one from Europe when the E30 hit 25-years old and didn't have to pass US regs. His had the dogleg manual trans (cassette gearbox), and yes given it was a ragtop it was heavier and less stiff than my 2-door '89 325i E30 sedan, but the ///M3 just didn't feel THAT special more than my 325i. When the E30 came out in 1988 no one bought them over the regular E30's at the time. The E30 ///M was a hard sell for dealers because the non-///M E30 was so good with the "si" version of the (168 HP) M20 that became the standard E30 engine in 1989. The fenders were cool though. But the 1980's YUPPIEs didn't get the (flared-fender) "Motorsport" thing.

But more for me and my wants (agree with you there) I have been a street-riding motorcyclist my entire adult life, and no cars back in the 1980's and 1990's were faster than any street bike over 600cc's. Bikes were and still are the cheap path to fill one's need for speed.

Forward to today. I still can't see buying an ///M3. $85K for a manual that has way too much power and speed for the street. And track it? Nah, my wallet would object to that. I get it that the modern ///M3 is far ahead in performance than the regular 3-series, but the 3-series now is a just fancy-girl's car pimped for a 3-year lease just to have the Roundel on the hood.

The best thing about the E86 is how stiff the frickin' thing is. When you first drive one, ///M or non-///M, you immediately grasp how great the chassis stiffness improves the driving experience. And that goes for the Roadster too.

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

As a long-time BMW enthusiast (before ///M was a thing), ///M cars have always been perplexing to me. I used to drive a lot, so putting lots of miles on an overly expensive BMW just never made financial sense either for the buy-in cost or the extra maintenance cost. My only experience with an ///M is my friend Phil's E30 M3 Cabrio. He was the first US citizen to import one from Europe when the E30 hit 25-years old and didn't have to pass US regs. His had the dogleg manual trans (cassette gearbox), and yes given it was a ragtop it was heavier and less stiff than my 2-door '89 325i E30 sedan, but the ///M3 just didn't feel THAT special more than my 325i. When the E30 came out in 1988 no one bought them over the regular E30's at the time. The E30 ///M was a hard sell for dealers because the non-///M E30 was so good with the "si" version of the (168 HP) M20 that became the standard E30 engine in 1989. The fenders were cool though. But the 1980's YUPPIEs didn't get the (flared-fender) "Motorsport" thing.

But more for me and my wants (agree with you there) I have been a street-riding motorcyclist my entire adult life, and no cars back in the 1980's and 1990's were faster than any street bike over 600cc's. Bikes were and still are the cheap path to fill one's need for speed.

Forward to today. I still can't see buying an ///M3. $85K for a manual that has way too much power and speed for the street. And track it? Nah, my wallet would object to that. I get it that the modern ///M3 is far ahead in performance than the regular 3-series, but the 3-series now is a just fancy-girl's car pimped for a 3-year lease just to have the Roundel on the hood.

The best thing about the E86 is how stiff the frickin' thing is. When you first drive one, ///M or non-///M, you immediately grasp how great the chassis stiffness improves the driving experience. And that goes for the Roadster too.

A couple of weekends ago I attended a talk with Bill Buckley, a former engineer at BMW who was in charge of manufacturing for the Z3/Z4 lines when they were built in Spartanburg. Part of the reason that the E86 was so stiff is that it retains the stiffening bars that ran down the A pillars – it was cheaper to leave them in from the E85 than to remove them. Super interesting guy.

As for M cars, on the whole I'm not interested in paying the premium because I don't feel like I'd really get any benefit from the extra performance, etc. in a daily driver. Really the only reason I have the E85 M is because a) it's a fun car that I do like to occasionally push, and b) while there is a price premium from the "regular" Z4, it's not really that much more.

I'm not saying that no M drivers benefit from the stuff it delivers, but my guess is that a majority of M cars are bought just so the owners can say they have an M. Kind of like having a car with 800hp – almost none of the people buying it will ever actually use the power, which effectively can't be used outside of a track, but just like the idea of having it. Both are fine – it's their money and their reasons are just as valid as anyone else's. I'm not here to tell anyone what to like or what to spend their money on.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

A couple of weekends ago I attended a talk with Bill Buckley, a former engineer at BMW who was in charge of manufacturing for the Z3/Z4 lines when they were built in Spartanburg. Part of the reason that the E86 was so stiff is that it retains the stiffening bars that ran down the A pillars – it was cheaper to leave them in from the E85 than to remove them. Super interesting guy.

As for M cars, on the whole I'm not interested in paying the premium because I don't feel like I'd really get any benefit from the extra performance, etc. in a daily driver. Really the only reason I have the E85 M is because a) it's a fun car that I do like to occasionally push, and b) while there is a price premium from the "regular" Z4, it's not really that much more.

I'm not saying that no M drivers benefit from the stuff it delivers, but my guess is that a majority of M cars are bought just so the owners can say they have an M. Kind of like having a car with 800hp – almost none of the people buying it will ever actually use the power, which effectively can't be used outside of a track, but just like the idea of having it. Both are fine – it's their money and their reasons are just as valid as anyone else's. I'm not here to tell anyone what to like or what to spend their money on.

I agree, folks can do with their money what they want. [this may start a flame war...] But my issue with some of the ///M is their disdain for things (owners) that (who) are not ///M. There is no "M" driver's license...

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I agree, folks can do with their money what they want. [this may start a flame war...] But my issue with some of the ///M is their disdain for things (owners) that (who) are not ///M. There is no "M" driver's license...

Yeah, unfortunately any fandom or "enthusiast" community has its fair share of gatekeepers and brand snobs. Everyone's met a guy who falls all over himself to let you know that he's got an M car – there's a guy who regularly attends our local C&C that just can't wait to tell anyone and everyone how great his car is, how great it sounds, how many offers he gets for it, blah, blah, blah. I mean, it's certainly a nice car, but Christ enough already. It really says more about themselves than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I'm cool with someone who's enthusiastic about their car, regardless of the badge, and I'm not denying that M cars are cool. There's just a fine line between "enthusiast" and "snob" that drains the fun out of it. That line can be kind of hard to define – kind of like the quote about pornography from the Supreme Court where the justice didn't know how to define it, but "he knows it when he sees it." But if you find yourself saying that "x isn't a real y," then you're probably on the wrong side of that line.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

Yeah, unfortunately any fandom or "enthusiast" community has its fair share of gatekeepers and brand snobs. Everyone's met a guy who falls all over himself to let you know that he's got an M car – there's a guy who regularly attends our local C&C that just can't wait to tell anyone and everyone how great his car is, how great it sounds, how many offers he gets for it, blah, blah, blah. I mean, it's certainly a nice car, but Christ enough already. It really says more about themselves than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I'm cool with someone who's enthusiastic about their car, regardless of the badge, and I'm not denying that M cars are cool. There's just a fine line between "enthusiast" and "snob" that drains the fun out of it. That line can be kind of hard to define – kind of like the quote about pornography from the Supreme Court where the justice didn't know how to define it, but "he knows it when he sees it." But if you find yourself saying that "x isn't a real y," then you're probably on the wrong side of that line.

In some instances, the Enthusiasm for the ///M turns into Elitism...

Based on the internet reported specs and MSRP, I'd say the $10K gap in price back in the day could have be worth the performance gap between the Z4M Coupe and the 3.0si Coupe, which is about 6-tenths of a second faster to 60 MPH. The 3.0si coupe is about 125 pounds lighter than the M. Probably the last time the ///M tax over the non-///M was worth the consideration. Current ///M's over their non-///M counterparts? Not so much.