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12-16-2016, 10:36 PM | #287 |
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12-16-2016, 10:50 PM | #288 | |
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12-17-2016, 09:27 AM | #289 | ||
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If the DME detects a knock is should pull timing on its own. If your tuner has not messed with the knock limits and only tweaked the ignition maps, start looking at the fuel. Again a quick dyno log should give up the mystery. My two cents.... Good luck and don't do anything without legal advice. |
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12-17-2016, 09:43 AM | #290 |
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I would not dyno this motor until I was 150% certain of the tune. Make that 250%.
I'll echo what others have said, you are more patient than I am. I'd be googling 'nasty SOB gearhead lawyer' right about now. |
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12-17-2016, 09:52 AM | #291 |
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100% bang on.
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12-17-2016, 11:53 AM | #292 | ||
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Randy had assured me the tune does not mess with the knock sensors and that it also does not add hardly any timing to the original tune. Quote:
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12-18-2016, 12:43 AM | #293 |
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Go back to stock.
It sucks, and I agree that the tune and headers are not the cause of the problems. But, you have to remove all doubt, especially if you're considering a lawsuit. Headers are a half day job, and the tune can be turned around while you drink a couple beers. I'll side with Randy and say that it's not the tune. There are a few ways to adjust timing advance, which I'll do my best to explain. I'm not sure which the Z4M uses. One method is through the use of a base table and modifier. The base table should be extremely conservative. This is the table that is used when knock has been detected. Each value includes a modifier that determines the maximum degrees of advance allowed beyond the conservative table. The car will start with the conservative table, then add timing to each value until it reaches the maximum allowed by the map. If knock is detected, it reduces timing advance until it reaches the value in the conservative table. Basically, it's like having two tables - one for your conservative base map, and one for maximum spark advance allowed. Another way is to have several different maps, depending on fuel quality (determined based on whether knock is detected). Again, the car will initially start with a conservative base map. No knock should be detected. It will then the next most aggressive map. If no knock is detected, it will move to an even more aggressive map. If knock is detected, it will revert to a less aggressive map. With either of these methods, a base map should exist that is so conservative that it will only knock in the most extreme cases (really, it should NEVER knock when operating with this map). If the car is using this map, something is wrong (very high IAT, poor fuel quality, etc.). It's one step away from limp mode. I can't see many tuners messing with this map, because there's no power to be had by adjusting timing in the conservative map (otherwise the car would seek a more aggressive modifier/map), and there's a high risk associated with adjusting this map. Tuners either adjust the modifier, or tweak the more aggressive maps, depending on how the ECU operates. So, it's probably not the tune. However, you need to go back to stock or this will get worse before it gets better.
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12-18-2016, 10:43 AM | #294 |
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Wow, missed all that over the last few days. Sorry to hear about the current issues mate.
First off, Randy is a great stand up guy, he has loads of experience on track with lots of race cars, so I'd pretty much believe him over what your mech is telling you. Lol the tune is expired?? I had that same issue when I went to update my previous tune from the new one Randy sent me. The software is out of date, just download the new one from Randy's site. Piss easy. I am not sure what's going on over there, but yeah stock sounds like a plan (leave the Euro headers, thats stock stuff anyways) Randy (any yourself) have the original file right? Just reload the original stock tune. Simple. Though I won't be too surprised if that isn't it mate, my car runs flawlessly, both tunes from the hands of the man himself. But yeah rule that out first.. I'd actually if I were you go and do the tune upload myself on the car, makeing sure they don't fuck anything up and still blame you. Takes about 45 mins. Anyways, very, very bloody interested how this pans out Shane. Remember, keep your Cool and maybe it's time to get someone else involved.. the whole thing about trying to blame the tune because that voids the warranty stinks to high heaven. V. |
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12-18-2016, 11:01 PM | #295 |
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Thanks Vanne, I might just do that, but they rarely get back to me and I wonder if they'll even let me touch the car at this point. I've seen it, but that's about it. We'll see what I can do to get out there and flash the car on their battery tender like I had done the time before.
I agree with you on your latter statement, it may be just about time to bring someone else into this. Right now I just want to hold onto the 2010 model loaner they have me in instead of the E46 loaner (2004 or 6? I'm not sure) that they've got laying around over there... that thing was terrifying.
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12-22-2016, 11:02 PM | #296 |
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So I called the shop, talked to them for a little while and wound up defending myself on the points regarding the tune and the things that they wanted to do moving forward. They still wont admit that there may be something that's there fault and I was a little irate about how they had talked to me when I was in person with them the last time I was at the shop. Well, I didn't even get to talk to them about all the things that I needed to because I suppose I had him so heated that he hung up on me, which I'm still a little shocked about.
No idea if they've contacted Randy about everything yet or not, but I'm assuming not. I plan to follow up with them again tomorrow... I expect I likely will not be in the loop. I was supposed to bring their loaner car in for some service on Tuesday, that didn't happen. 102,000 and ticking.
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12-23-2016, 12:15 AM | #297 |
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Call Randy, and see if the shop has made any attempt to contact him, take a usb stick with your stock tune down to the shop with the uploader box (I assume you have that) or the shop has it?
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12-23-2016, 12:52 AM | #298 | |
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Something is wrong with your engine and its not a simple or apparant problem otherwise it would have been solved in the build. If I was a machine/engine shop I wouldnt even start if there was 'a tune' involved, or even another company on which you have to rely for performance or reliability issues. The thing is, you rely on the shop to solve the problem, not on the tuner, otherwise the engine would be at the tuners' shop being repaired. If I would be a tuner I'd also always recommend to only apply the tune on an engine that is running good while stock. As I understand you bought the tune as a pre tuned package, not a tune custom to this engine. So the tune is a 'bolt on'. Imho if the build engine got the damage from the tune/headers or problems related to the build is not to tell anymore. It has been taken apart again nog? If the tune is (would be) now the thing causing problems is no direct proof that it caused the other problems. You can suspect it but the moment to verify is past. If you rely on the shop to solve the problem, go with what they're suggesting. (solving the problem is the first priority I think, cause and responsibility of all past problems comes second) Try not to get them mad unless you're considering going to a different shop alltogether.
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12-23-2016, 05:00 AM | #299 |
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GuidoK, Being that the engine still isn't running right, let's blame the tune and recoup our costs and pass it onto Shane.
(Which is what the shop is suggesting at this stage?) and if it IS the tune causing the problem, it would be a very easy solve. Uploading that stock puppy would take less than 45mins. I suspect they don't want to do that, as it will remove any blame they want to appoint from the tune. ... Which is probably why they haven't installed the stock tune. |
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12-23-2016, 06:20 AM | #300 | |
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But still its the way to go if the solving of the problems is the first priority. If it's that simple (even installing original headers is only a few hours work even if it includes some flange welding) I dont understand why Arsonism hasnt insisted on it. I mean customer is king I already suggested it 8 months ago if you want to be able to diagnose problems. And I ment these kind of problems, problems with no apparent/easy top pinpoint cause. I then also dont get the reasoning of the shop that they blame the tune but no, lets not get rid of it. They might want to gain something but in that case they're contradicting themselves. They can only gain something if the tune/headers are at blame, and the only way to see that is to go back to stock. But I dont know all the details of what has been said in that shop.
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Last edited by GuidoK; 12-23-2016 at 06:28 AM.. |
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12-23-2016, 06:44 AM | #301 |
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I also dont think the problem lies with the headers, but considering the size of the problems, I'd ditch all mods (even the light flywheel).
But I dont know if all the original parts are still there (I think the headers are). But what I also dont understand (I might have misunderstood); Arsonism hasn't driven the new engine/car yet. Am I right? The thing now not running right is that it is said to predetonate. Do they mean knock? I still dont really understand what is the exact problem now. They made some picture with some camera? I'd be more interested in live obd2 data. Fuel trim is measured, Ignition timing is, knock is. I mean if the shop really wants to blame the tune, be sure what the exact technical observation criteria are. I mean if you see knock on the sensors with INPA/DIS with tune installed and not without the tune installed, its clearly the tune. But if you go looking on a picture made with some camera (I presume inside the cylinder walls), that's a pretty dodgy process the way I hear it. Also fuel trims,they can vary constantly (It can take up to 50 miles or so for the long term fuel trim to be fully adjusted) Maybe ask another shop for a 2nd opinion.
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Last edited by GuidoK; 12-23-2016 at 06:50 AM.. |
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12-24-2016, 10:59 AM | #302 | |||||||||||
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----- Long responses but hopefully I've answered everything. It's frustrating to deal with and to talk about, but I'm doing my best to keep my head level. I really want to be empathetic to all sides of not only the discussion but also the contemplation of what is actually going on here. I've realized (yet again) anger and impatience really doesn't go anywhere at all and I've probably damaged some of my relationship with the shop because of my most recent phone call. However, there's no repairing that at this point, so there's only one thing to do while I wait I do appreciate both of y'all's responses here and I hope to continue the conversation that's been started here in these last couple of posts, I just wanted to clarify the above because a lot of this is not only financially loaded for me but also emotionally loaded as well.
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12-24-2016, 04:06 PM | #303 | |
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12-24-2016, 08:52 PM | #304 |
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Wow, ok, I must have forgoten that you had a stock tune on the car when it first imploded..
Then for the FREAKIN life of me I can't understand why on earth they would install a non stock tune, before making sure the rebuilt engine runs properly.. that to me is just stupid.. and Shane, even if you requested this to be done, any sort of shop would have said "ok, how about we do that after we know everything is cool?" Crazy stuff.. Dropping headers and a tune is 3 hrs work.. tops Shane, still hoping for a good outcome mate. Hopefully the Christmas season will bring some good cheer.
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12-25-2016, 09:23 PM | #305 |
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Thanks Vanne, you've kept my head up through a lot of this and I feel like I see a lot of myself in you through all the positive vibes that you spread throughout this forum. I'm hoping that things do wrap up here soon, it's been long journey and I have definitely dictated more than anyone ever should in their personal life. I'll keep y'all posted whenever something new comes about.
Each time I look back into this I seem to have a different fear, now it's that the motor isn't too banged up by the time that they get everything figured out and that I hopefully don't have to purchase a new set of headers.
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Last edited by Arsonism; 12-26-2016 at 07:05 PM.. Reason: I was drunk and grammar was hard. |
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12-27-2016, 11:45 AM | #307 | |
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Timing chain off position by a tooth on the crank gear might be a small enough increment the engine would still run but show timing issues the DME couldn't correct for.....
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01-12-2017, 11:03 PM | #308 |
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I've made them a counter proposal on the bill they've tried to push forward in regards to the "additional repairs" that need to be made, but no solid figure there. I've also made them another offer which I'm waiting for a response on. I'll keep y'all posted. It's still back and forth and nothing is going anywhere.
For sure deploying to Africa in August though, so that's some good news.
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