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03-01-2010, 04:40 PM | #45 |
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03-01-2010, 04:43 PM | #46 | |||
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03-01-2010, 08:39 PM | #47 |
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Wow. Its like having a conversation with kids.
Look you can believe what you want but to disprove someone have some kind of educated explanation on why you think its wrong. Don't go comparing our cars to cars that are in professional racing (rolex, F1, etc). The cars they are run is nothing close to what we run. Be more opened minded people.
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03-01-2010, 09:10 PM | #48 | |
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03-01-2010, 11:39 PM | #49 | |
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This guy HAS to be a troll, there's absolutely no way someones this dumb.
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03-02-2010, 08:19 AM | #50 | |
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You go on to say your totally open minded and then "you are also totally wrong" how is this opend minded? Seriously is that really being open minded.
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If you feel that engine braking is the best then you would maximize this by rowing through the gears with the most amount of rpm without going over redline. You should be taught that rather than going through the gears going into 6th gear to 3rd gear. Now this is getting into a different subject. Next track event bring it up in the classes and to the instructors. Also go take a ride along and see how what they do at the end of a main straight.
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03-02-2010, 09:03 AM | #51 | |
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The reason you heel toe is in order to keep the car loaded properly coming out of the corner, on the initial bite you'll have the majority of the weight transferred to the front under braking to allow the front wheels to turn in, however once you pass the initial turn in point the goal is to transfer the load from the front to the rear in a controlled manner to come out in power, it's less about engine braking than it is about keeping the car properly loaded for ideal weight transfer to the wheels that will accelerate you out of the corner. I've done plenty of ride arounds in various cars from cup cars, Ferrari challenge,street cars, etc and I've yet to see an instructor hold the clutch in going through a corner. That being said whats the first thing you do in a spin (hint : both feet in) |
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03-02-2010, 10:02 AM | #52 | |
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So to clarify: Coming to braking point from 160+mph 6th gear -Brake, clutch pedal depressed, and shift into neutral then into third -before moment of turn in heel and toe to rematch and releas clutch -then turn in Getting into weight transfer is a different discussion and goes into why you brake into corners, left foot braking, and car rotations (etc.)
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03-02-2010, 10:21 AM | #53 | |
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I am beginning to think you really are a troll but either way my god I hope I am not ever on the track with you if you really are for real.
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03-02-2010, 10:55 AM | #54 | |
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The engine does slow down your car but with modern racing brake pads the friction goes beyond the capability of engine braking. That rotational force of the engine get to a point where the engine stop helping you brake and goes against slowing you down. Rather than just using the brakes for slowing down the kenetic energy of your car moving forward but now it also have to deal with the rotational energy of the the engine.
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03-02-2010, 12:32 PM | #55 | |
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Please show me a dynamic analysis of your "basis" of information. Because by your theory it means that most of the motoring and motorsport industry has been doing braking advancements and balancing completely wrong. If you can't prove your data your words are worth jack. troll somewhere else it also means that the SAE club at my university has been doing research and development completely wrong and that we have no knowledge of movement physics. |
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03-02-2010, 04:59 PM | #56 |
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Stop entertaining this kid guys, he's a troll, someone who just posts things to get peoples panties in a bunch and gets of on it.
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03-02-2010, 08:50 PM | #57 |
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Wow. This is some heated heel and toe talk. I'm still no good at heel and toeing my M Coupe. Got it down like second nature in my Spec Miata, and almost have it in the Elise. All's I was gonna suggest is don't be shy about adjusting pedals or bolting blocks or extensions to your pedals to suit your needs. If it works, it works...
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03-04-2010, 05:25 AM | #58 |
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Does anyone here use accelerator pedal extensions like those found in Ultimate Pedals? I was considering getting a set, but would like some feedback of anyone who might already have a set.
http://www.ultimatepedals.com/catalo...oducts_id=2147
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03-04-2010, 12:18 PM | #59 | |
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03-05-2010, 10:12 AM | #60 |
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I've always been fine heel-toeing for 30 years on the street, but did my first school this past weekend and it was a disaster. My racing shoes are much narrower than what I usually wear, and I wasn't able to reach the accelerator with the side of the ball of my foot as I usually do. Went to using my heel, but picking my heel up off the floor made my braking really unstable/inconsistent. So . . . I'm thinking that the Ultimate Pedal with the full side extension would be better for me than the lower extensiion. Anyone running the full-extension version, and any problems with it?
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03-09-2010, 02:59 PM | #61 |
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I think planting your heel on the floor panel when braking is a bad habit. IMO, the best way of heel and toeing is to swing your heel and use it to depress the gas pedal. Otherwise, there is a chance your foot will get jammed between the pedals. I know of one "experienced" track driver who spun out that way. I played around with extension plates a little in the past, but decided against them--not only because of the potential jamming issue but also due to the possibility of inadvertently catching the throttle while braking, which happened to me a few times. Anyway, there will be different opinions on this, but I think the cleanest and most consistent way is to swing out the heel. Also, heel and toeing is somewhat different on the street vs track as on the street you won't be standing on the brakes the way you would on the track. My 2 cents…
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Last edited by lucid; 04-22-2010 at 10:04 AM.. |
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04-21-2010, 07:58 PM | #62 |
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Pad riser?
So my problem was that I couldn't heel toe. I was finding my brake pedal at the end of a straight, was ending below the level of the accelerator. This was making rolling my foot impossible, because I was already below the level of the accelerator.
So I'm wondering if anyone can recommend an adjustable system to add height to the brake pedal, so when I'm standing on it, I'll be closer to level with the accelerator? |
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04-21-2010, 09:37 PM | #63 |
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Ultimate pedals have good extensions. http://www.ultimatepedals.com/
Without extensions for the Z4M Coupe, it's going to be VERY difficult trying to heel-toe using the old traditional (use tip of foot to HT). Whoever told you this was easy in a Z4M, obviously have not driven it. With racing shoes, it's already not possible to keep even 10% of my toe area on top of the braking pedal. It's not just silly, it's VERY dangerous on track if you slip your feet trying to rev match. I am a US foot size 9. Other race cars have their pedals (brake+gas) adjusted closely together so it's not hard to do so. It depends on your cockpit size and pedal adjustments. Street cars like ours, don't have them spaced so closely together because they're not race cars in the first place. AusTTin Bob noted that right in this post. For example: Lotus Elise Pedals - Pic of someone's foot on it. [u2b]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uy9vxvNd1Vk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uy9vxvNd1Vk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b] Ayrton Senna in a NSX (tip of toe to heel-toe) [u2b]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8By2AEsGAhU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8By2AEsGAhU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b] Keiichi Tsuchiya Heel toe technique (base of foot to heel-toe) [u2b]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BLflNPLJ1pY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BLflNPLJ1pY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b] Chill guys. All-talk and flames are crazy in here.
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Last edited by ryanchua; 04-21-2010 at 09:53 PM.. |
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04-21-2010, 11:00 PM | #64 | |
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what you don't see in the senna video is what he is doing with his right knee. if you move your right knee as far as you can to the left while braking, then you can brake as hard and deep as you want with the ball of the big toe and still not hit the gas. move knee to the right to lower the lateral foot onto the gas pedal for a blip. it's this sort of thing that you can't practice on the street, because you essentially never brake that deeply. other ways (heel on brake, toes on gas, or vice versa), to me, are much harder because you are trying to do a moderate movement with the ankle while the leg is pushing out very hard while braking- that would be like trying to write while arm wrestling. with senna's way, you control how strong the blip is by how far you move the knee to the right. |
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04-22-2010, 07:35 AM | #65 |
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maybe i've got something wrong
Ryanchua, and R32, Thanks for your input. The method you describe is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish. I agree that doing anything other than using the right side of my right foot to control throttle seems unnatural. More so for me as my right foot was crushed by a car while I was on my motorcycle, so using my actual heel to do anything doesn't seem to work.
I use the roll method on my 83 rabbit GTi that I autocross and nearly every other manual car I've driven. In fact, the Z4MCoupe works fine at street speeds. My problem is at the end of high speed straights, after scrubbing 100mph, I find the travel of the brake pedal is below the level of the throttle. So while the ultimate pedals solve the distance between the brake and throttle, it doesn't solve the mis-matching heights. (I think). Correct me if I'm wrong, please. The solution that was suggested is to add a pad to the brake pedal that will allow it's final height to be closer to that of the throttle when I'm standing on the brake. What I'm wondering is.. does anyone have a suggestion that might be better than bolting a piece of plywood to the brake pedal? Does anyone make an aluminum brake pedal that provides good traction that is height adjustable? |
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04-23-2010, 12:41 PM | #66 | |
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The fastest track out west, Cal, er, Auto Club Speedway, uses one of the longest and biggest ovals NASCAR has on their schedule, and even with an M6 I can only get it up to about 145 mph. Car(s) that are capable of hitting more than (160+mph) that are either racecars with massive down-force that uses some sort of fancy Hewland with straight cut gears and sequential shift (ala Grand-Am Prototypes I think) and/or tube-framed cars like the GT2/3 classes which none of them will use traditional clutches. Even Ferrari's and Porsche Carrera GTs struggle to hit 160+ mph on street tires at Auto Club Speedway. Have you any idea how hard it is for ANY street car to hit 160+ on most tracks? Have you actually driven on a track before? |
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