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10-30-2008, 12:25 PM | #23 | |
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The thread is about feeling, the 335 is quicker in this respect. You can trust me when I say I know exactly what you are talking about, a lot more so then you do. Here is a quick graph from a program I wrote in C to illustrate exactly what you are saying, I have been in the war against peak torque dyno readings and comparisons without respect to gearing for a long time now. Glad you could join us, next time though pick a target that doesn't actually know what he's talking about. And next time try and explain it in a way the lemmings can understand. For instance the height on this graph is directly proportional to the acceleration of the car, higher = faster. One thing I hate more than people who don't know what they are talking about pretending like they do is people who take things out of context, that was a thread about canyon running you imbecile.
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10-30-2008, 02:20 PM | #24 |
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That graph represents the total torque tables I made in Excel. In the Z4 M, you'll shift sooner but you're producing more torque at the point of the shift and at the point the rev counter lands after the gear change. It looks like in your graph you shifted the 335i at 7000 in all gears? Does your graph account for car weight? Of course my torque tables don't, but that should give the edge to the Z4 M even more so. I also think there should be at least a half-second difference between the two in the 1/4 mile, with the Z4 M winning of course. Ultimately these cars are further apart in true performance than mere tables and graphs represent. But the OP was concerned about the manufacturer's stated engine output as if that was a negative. It's a positive when you consider it's part of a far better balanced package--drivetrain, chassis, brakes, etc. Plus the S54 is a screamer!!! Add the shorter final gear and it's on a level performance with the new M3. These cars in power to weight aren't that far apart. They are a lot closer than the 335i is to the Z4 M.
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10-30-2008, 03:56 PM | #25 |
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Now I'm interested, next time label your axes tho.
How did you come up with this chart and exactly what does higher=faster represent here?
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10-30-2008, 04:27 PM | #26 |
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X = mph
Y = Total lb-ft as delivered to the ground The dips are gear changes. So you can see in each gear the S54 is delivering more torque to the ground than a N54. You'd never convince 99% of N54 drivers that a motor with less crank torque can do that, but thanks to gearing it can. With a 3.91 final drive the pink line would be a lot taller in each gear (8%). Questionable is where he determined his gear changes (probably at redline for both, which a torque table would prove isn't ideal for the N54). For the N54, you only want to redline the first 2 gears. After that there's too much total torque fall off to keep it revving that high, so you start stepping down the shift points. And with that you change gears sooner which limits the speed in that gear. In a word, that sucks. I really think the N54 is the great BMW hoax of all time. It's a marketing smash hit, and mainly for people who just like to push hard to posted speed limits. Personally I think it thwarts driver involvement. Makes you lazy as hell. Not very BMW-like. But hey, at least they figured out a new use for the old E46 330i block. Wish I had a dollar for every 1Addicts idiot that thinks their 135i motor has the magnesium core aluminium block (which was a nice step forward for the cars fitted with it). They'll believe anything on that site as long as it's something for them to help worship what they think is the best BMW sports coupe of all time (which is clearly either the E30 M3 or E46 M3...I go back and forth).
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10-30-2008, 04:54 PM | #27 |
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335 is a better daily driver. Smooth, more power at the low end, easy to drive around in the city, not as loud. Less feel for speed, very stable... a GT car. You know basically a car that gets you from point A to B after the novelty wears off.
Z4M is not much of a daily driver... it kind of sucks at it. The power is up higher, you need to rev it higher than a 335. It is very raw. Sucks when driving slow. You feel the speed more with the Z4M. Basically it needs open road and curves... or the track. I can fall asleep driving a 335... something that is not possible with the Z4M. |
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10-30-2008, 05:36 PM | #28 |
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10-30-2008, 08:29 PM | #29 |
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I have a Z43.0si Roadster and a friend has a 335i convertible and, IMO, my cars feels faster and more fun to drive than her car does. I know she has more horses and her car is certainly more luxurious than my car but it's not nearly as much fun to drive. Plus you lose your trunk when the top comes down.
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10-30-2008, 10:13 PM | #31 | |||||
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I disagree with you, it's quite a good engine for a commuter car, it's not for the track or racing though besides the fact it's so easily tunable. But you show me another 330 (yes it IS 330 HP) motor then can easily get 30mpg on the highway, they don't exist, not by a long shot, and not one that has 350 pounds of torque especially.
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10-30-2008, 10:49 PM | #32 | |
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10-30-2008, 11:01 PM | #33 | |
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335i; http://www.edmunds.com/used/2007/bmw...245/specs.html C6; http://www.edmunds.com/used/2007/che...682/specs.html |
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10-30-2008, 11:04 PM | #34 |
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10-30-2008, 11:14 PM | #35 | ||
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Wheel torque is acceleration, period, there is no debating this what so ever, the values on that graph ARE acceleration. You have no comprehension of this so why don't you refrain from calling people idiots until you do.
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10-30-2008, 11:26 PM | #36 |
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You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. I posted the link with the EPA numbers showing identical highway numbers and my experience with LSx motors on the highway has been easy 30+ numbers. So I don't need your luck thanks, again what do I win????
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10-30-2008, 11:41 PM | #37 |
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C6 gets -10mpg on the highway, I tried and succeeded.
I highly doubt you're getting 30mpg highway at 80mph in a c6.
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10-31-2008, 04:10 AM | #39 | ||
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http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=647
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10-31-2008, 07:13 AM | #40 |
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I sold my E92 335i 2 months ago and bought a Z4 M Roadster.
Firstly, stock for stock, the 335i is 'easier' to overtake in as the 400Nm of torque ensures that compared to the Z4M, it needs less work to build up the speed; much like comparing a diesel to a petrol in some ways. And similarly, the 'entertainment' factor favours the ///M as a result. In terms of sheer power and speed, the Z4M is the faster car, albeit slightly. It does out-accelerate the 335i but, again, it is - imo - a trickier beast to manage and the 335i is 'easier' to launch. But get it right and hit the Z4M's sweet spot and it delivers. In terms of midrange punch, the twin turbo 335i 'feels' faster much like a more torquey diesel 'feels' faster than a petrol. (335i vs 335d) But race from A-B and the ///M is faster overall. On a pre-determined short, twisty course I have beaten my 335i times comfortably - this is due to the Z4M being slightly faster and handling far better. I added an SSTT to my 335i and with it installed, it matches the Z4M for sheer pace in all respects but still wouldn't handle as well, obviously. From experience, the 335i I owned for 2 years is a very capable car but not nearly as focussed in stock form as a Z4M, nor is it quite as fast in standard form.
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10-31-2008, 09:47 AM | #41 | |
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Also, Shifting at 7500 would be a mistake. Raw data: 153.9 700.9 7492 5 154 700.5 7496 5 154.1 700 7501 5 154.2 699.5 7506 5 154.3 699 7511 5 154.4 698.6 7516 5 // 163.4 656.4 7954 5 163.5 655.9 7959 5 163.6 655.4 7964 5 163.7 654.9 7969 5 163.8 654.5 7974 5 163.9 654.1 7978 5 164 653.5 6786 6 164.1 653.2 6790 6 164.2 652.9 6794 6 164.3 652.5 6798 6 164.4 652.2 6802 6 164.5 651.9 6806 6
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10-31-2008, 02:33 PM | #42 | |
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why do you continue to post numbers without any headings?! lol you're like a half step away from being credible |
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10-31-2008, 02:37 PM | #43 |
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If you were able to understand them with headings you would know what each was without them so I didn't bother. But since you said something, it's MPH wheel torque RPM and gear, in that order.
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10-31-2008, 03:03 PM | #44 | |
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Where the line intersects is where you shift. Since it's delineated via MPH the location of the next gear on the chart along the X axis is where you would be if you shifted from the lower gear and vise versa. In simple terms, don't shift until the lines intersect, intersecting lines mean the torque in the next gear is higher then what you have in your current gear. But that doesn't happen with this car, ever.
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