How Red Bull screwed Albon?

[SenorFunkyPants]

Its interesting to compare the maximum speeds at each track for the 2020 season for Albon and Verstappen.
The number of times that Verstappen had a higher maximum speed than Albon was 1 single race and that was a gap of 0.1 kph.
In every other race Albon had the higher maximum speed, as much as 29 kph.
No wonder then that Albon struggled all year with a much lower downforce setting than that given to Verstappen?

[racerbruce]

Great thread Senor!

Why, it just must be a coincidence that ALB's racer was significantly faster (terminal velocity) than VER....I jest, of course.

One could state that the RBR "braintrust" simply set up both racers with different strategies to "cover all bases" in their team management to hopefully achieve optimum race results.

One could state ALB's racer was hobbled by design (aero setup) to prevent a better outcome against his teammate....

Ensuring VER always had the better setup that achieved better results.

Your acute observation(s) will be telling when you post the terminal velocity trap speeds of PER and VER.

[David70]

Your theory is RB purposely handicapped Alban? For what purpose? He scored less than half the points and came in 7th compared to 3rd, not even close.

[yco]

snappy rear end + lower downforce + being a test driver for Max didnt help for sure...

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by David70

Your theory is RB purposely handicapped Alban? For what purpose? He scored less than half the points and came in 7th compared to 3rd, not even close.

I'm trying to work that out myself, this thread is

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by David70

Your theory is RB purposely handicapped Alban? For what purpose? He scored less than half the points and came in 7th compared to 3rd, not even close.

Indeed.
Assuming that Verstappen is given the optimum set up in terms of downforce vrs top speed for any given track and the optimum pit stop strategy in terms of tyre type and number of stops....then why give a (what is by definition a sub optimum) different strategy to your second driver...especially when a lower downforce set up must surely make the car harder to drive?
By comparison the Mercedes drivers had a smaller delta in top speeds and almost always the same tyres and pit stop strategy.
Also interesting is that Verstappen and Hamiltons maximum trap speeds were much closer but with Verstappens max speeds being higher 2/3 of the time.

[David70]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Indeed.
Assuming that Verstappen is given the optimum set up in terms of downforce vrs top speed for any given track and the optimum pit stop strategy in terms of tyre type and number of stops....then why give (what is by definition, a sub optimum) different strategy to your second driver...especially when a lower downforce set up must surely make the car harder to drive?
By comparison the Mercedes drivers had a smaller delta in top speeds and almost always the same tyres and pit stop strategy.
Also interesting is that Verstappen and Hamiltons maximum trap speed were much closer but with Verstappens max speeds being higher ~2/3 of the time.

I'll make it simpler, there are many ways to set up a car when trying to get the best laptime. The idea that RB wanted Alban to do poorly so they gave him a shitty car is wrong. The best thing for the team is to have them both running at the front of the pack as it gives you more options in pushing the ones around you to have to cover your choices. They are paid on points and sponsorships and sponsors want to see the team and both drivers placing as high as possible.

If Verstappen had the fastest trap speed you would have said he had the better setup or engine settings and this was the cause of Albon doing poorly?

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by David70

I'll make it simpler, there are many ways to set up a car when trying to get the best laptime. The idea that RB wanted Alban to do poorly so they gave him a shitty car is wrong. The best thing for the team is to have them both running at the front of the pack as it gives you more options in pushing the ones around you to have to cover your choices. They are paid on points and sponsorships and sponsors want to see the team and both drivers placing as high as possible.

If Verstappen had the fastest trap speed you would have said he had the better setup or engine settings and this was the cause of Albon doing poorly?

I don't know how I can say it much differently.
Why give your second driver a significantly different (harder to drive) set up and tyre/pit stop strategy at every race (bar 1 or 2)?

[5.M0NSTER]

From a vehicle dynamics point of view, lower down force = less darag on the car. Less drag = greater acceleration at same engine power. Greater acceleration = greater top speed by the end of the straight. So not surprising.

Corner speed, and exit speed will be slower with lower downforce though.

[bluewater328]

I think Albon is more about "hopes up and dashed quickly" sorta like Gasly. Perform or go back down. Red Bull is known for their brutal truth in success desires. They saw an option and they went for it. Not sure I see the different setups as an intentional block.

I think the good thing you see about them is those two were still kept within the relative stable and were found roles.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I don't know how I can say it much differently.
Why give your second driver a significantly different (harder to drive) set up and tyre/pit stop strategy at every race (bar 1 or 2)?

If your objective is to use one driver as test bed for the other, it's perfectly logical. And, of course, that's never happened in F1. Nope. Not at all.

[David70]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I don't know how I can say it much differently.
Why give your second driver a significantly different (harder to drive) set up and tyre/pit stop strategy at every race (bar 1 or 2)?

For all we know they tried both setups with Alban and the one he ended up with gave him the best lap time. We have no idea if his laptime would have been better with more downforce. Just speculation.

[MJE60]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Its interesting to compare the maximum speeds at each track for the 2020 season for Albon and Verstappen.
The number of times that Verstappen had a higher maximum speed than Albon was 1 single race and that was a gap of 0.1 kph.
In every other race Albon had the higher maximum speed, as much as 29 kph.
No wonder then that Albon struggled all year with a much lower downforce setting than that given to Verstappen?

So, Red Bull Racing Honda used different down force settings for different drivers. One setting gave a higher top speed, the other better traction. To suggest the team did this solely to damage their no.2 driver, presumably therefore also sacrificing potential podiums for their no.1 driver, was for what reason? Christian Horner’s frustration at having to manage strategy against two Mercedes cars, without Albion being able to cover Verstappen was noticeable on more than one occasion. I would suggest that firstly, if RBRH had wanted shot of Alex, they would simply have replaced him and secondly the more likely explanation, a lower downforce setting gave Alex better overall lap times and his failings were due to not being able to handle the pressure.

Every good conspiracy theory has to have a few supporting facts, I struggle to see a single one in the theory that Red Bull deliberately screwed Albon, because no-one would buy the line that RBRH did it unintentionally and through incompetence. Every driver will have slightly different set-up preferences to their team mate, some minor and some major, downforce is just one of them.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by MJE60

So, Red Bull Racing Honda used different down force settings for different drivers. One setting gave a higher top speed, the other better traction. To suggest the team did this solely to damage their no.2 driver, presumably therefore also sacrificing potential podiums for their no.1 driver, was for what reason? Christian Horner’s frustration at having to manage strategy against two Mercedes cars, without Albion being able to cover Verstappen was noticeable on more than one occasion. I would suggest that firstly, if RBRH had wanted shot of Alex, they would simply have replaced him and secondly the more likely explanation, a lower downforce setting gave Alex better overall lap times and his failings were due to not being able to handle the pressure.

Every good conspiracy theory has to have a few supporting facts, I struggle to see a single one in the theory that Red Bull deliberately screwed Albion, because no-one would buy the line that RBRH did it unintentionally and through incompetence. Every driver will have slightly different set-up preferences to their team mate, some minor and some major, downforce is just one of them.

Fair comment...except why give your new driver with little experience in your car a completely different set up to your #1 driver.
Why not simply give him the same set up as Verstappen as it was already proving pretty successful.
But no they gave him an already pointy car (that was not to his taste) and made it even harder for him to drive by considerably reducing its downforce.
Not for a couple of races to see it was to his taste but for pretty much every race in the season.
Surely they could have tried him out with Verstappens set up for a few races..rather than watch him under perform race after race after race.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Fair comment...except why give your new driver with little experience in your car a completely different set up to your #1 driver.
Why not simply give him the same set up as Verstappen as it was already proving pretty successful.
But no they gave him an already pointy car (that was not to his taste) and made it even harder for him to drive by considerably reducing its downforce.
Not for a couple of races to see it was to his taste but for pretty much every race in the season.
Surely they could have tried him out with Verstappens set up for a few races..rather than watch him under perform race after race after race.

Verstappen, Inc., has no interest in a driver being close to Max. Watch the explosion this season with PER.

[David70]

Originally Posted by MJE60

the more likely explanation, a lower downforce setting gave Alex better overall lap times and his failings were due to not being able to handle the pressure.

Every driver will have slightly different set-up preferences to their team mate, some minor and some major, downforce is just one of them.

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Fair comment...except why give your new driver with little experience in your car a completely different set up to your #1 driver.
Why not simply give him the same set up as Verstappen as it was already proving pretty successful.
But no they gave him an already pointy car (that was not to his taste) and made it even harder for him to drive by considerably reducing its downforce.
Not for a couple of races to see it was to his taste but for pretty much every race in the season.
Surely they could have tried him out with Verstappens set up for a few races..rather than watch him under perform race after race after race.

He said why, you either missed it or don't like the answer.

[David70]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Verstappen, Inc., has no interest in a driver being close to Max. Watch the explosion this season with PER.

Every driver wants to beat their teammate, they are the one that is most closely matched in equipment and the best way to judge a driver on his ability.

[MJE60]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Fair comment...except why give your new driver with little experience in your car a completely different set up to your #1 driver.
Why not simply give him the same set up as Verstappen as it was already proving pretty successful.
But no they gave him an already pointy car (that was not to his taste) and made it even harder for him to drive by considerably reducing its downforce.
Not for a couple of races to see it was to his taste but for pretty much every race in the season.
Surely they could have tried him out with Verstappens set up for a few races..rather than watch him under perform race after race after race.

Because the set-up gave the driver better lap times. If a higher downforce setting had worked for Alex then RBRH would have used it. Does anyone really belief a team spends millions to develop the best car possible and then use a set-up which gives a driver a lower lap time than they can achieve with a different setting. Just because one setting works for Max it is incorrect to assume it is the best/fastest overall setting for a team mate. I will accept that RBRH may have developed the car in 2020 to better suit Max’s driving style and preferences/strengths, many new drivers have to face this scenario (design being influenced by lead driver).

[MJE60]

Originally Posted by David70

Every driver wants to beat their teammate, they are the one that is most closely matched in equipment and the best way to judge a driver on his ability.

Absolutely correct and this, no doubt, is what put incredible pressure on both Alex and Pierre. Both drivers have talent but being a team mate to either Max or Lewis takes a certain mental stamina. I cannot wait to see the dynamics with Sergio Perez.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by MJE60

Because the set-up gave the driver better lap times. If a higher downforce setting had worked for Alex then RBRH would have used it. Does anyone really belief a team spends millions to develop the best car possible and then use a set-up which gives a driver a lower lap time than they can achieve with a different setting. Just because one setting works for Max, do not assume it is the best setting for a team mate.

Mate . You nailed it !

[bluewater328]

Originally Posted by MJE60

Because the set-up gave the driver better lap times. If a higher downforce setting had worked for Alex then RBRH would have used it. Does anyone really belief a team spends millions to develop the best car possible and then use a set-up which gives a driver a lower lap time than they can achieve with a different setting. Just because one setting works for Max, do not assume it is the best setting for a team mate.

Cells working separately in the same paddock never works out well. The successful ones have all shared info between teams. RBR has no reason to not give both drivers an ideal setup tuned to their settings.

BTW, found it interesting to see more of the drama of past years in the Netflix show. Cant wait to see the behind-the-press action for this past year. That said, I usually watch replays in spare time, so maybe I missed the drama live :P

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by MJE60

Because the set-up gave the driver better lap times. If a higher downforce setting had worked for Alex then RBRH would have used it. Does anyone really belief a team spends millions to develop the best car possible and then use a set-up which gives a driver a lower lap time than they can achieve with a different setting. Just because one setting works for Max it is incorrect to assume it is the best/fastest overall setting for a team mate.

+1