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      01-31-2013, 05:21 PM   #1
pal
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Castrol TWS vs EDGE (both 10w60)

I picked up some bulk oil from a seller on the forums and got a mix of TWS 10w60 and Edge 10w60. Both say that they are formulated for M engines.

However, the BMW part number on the Edge is different (83 12 2 219 730) and realoem.com indicates this to be for a BMW motorcycle (HP2 Sport K29).

Now I know Castrol is in the midst of re-branding all their synthetic oils to EDGE and was wondering if some of you have started getting this oil from your dealers as well?

Here are side by side pics -




Old part number -
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      01-31-2013, 05:37 PM   #2
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My last couple of oil changes have been this. I ordered one from Tischer and one from ECS.
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      01-31-2013, 05:52 PM   #3
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It's interesting that the dealers and ECS are selling the EDGE Professional TWS 10w60 now. My guess is that Castrol just wants to sell EDGE branded oils now. But what's curious to me is that the EDGE Professional has a BMW K29 motorcycle oil part number stamped on the label ...
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      01-31-2013, 06:15 PM   #4
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Yeah, dealership sold me Edge and told me it was the new TWS branding.
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      01-31-2013, 06:41 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike519 View Post
Yeah, dealership sold me Edge and told me it was the new TWS branding.
That's what I am thinking - TWS Motorsport is getting phased out in lieu of EDGE branding. But there are differences in specs (see below); EDGE seems to have lower viscosity at operating temps (not good) but does have a higher flash point (good).

Castrol EDGE Professional TWS 10w60
Kinematic: 22.7 mm2/s (22.7 cSt) at 100°C
Color: Amber[Light]
Odor: Mild
Flashpoint: 203°C (397.4°)

Castrol TWS Motorsport 10w60
Kinematic: 24.5 mm2/s (24.5 cSt) at 100°C
Color: Brown
Odor: Oily
Flashpoint: 200°C (392°F)
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      01-31-2013, 09:15 PM   #6
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The oil change kit I got from ECS is Edge
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      01-31-2013, 10:24 PM   #7
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Differences in specs sort of depend on the whole scale of the measurement - are those differences statistically different do you think? Are they different enough to be a concern?
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      02-01-2013, 01:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
The oil change kit I got from ECS is Edge
Same here, bought in October.
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      02-01-2013, 11:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onebluemcm View Post
Differences in specs sort of depend on the whole scale of the measurement - are those differences statistically different do you think? Are they different enough to be a concern?
For a street car, absolutely not on both accounts; I think the EDGE Professional should be perfectly fine on a street car.

On a race track in the summer, I have some doubts as oil temps are in the 230-240°F range and the new oil will have lower viscosity. Whether that increases bearing wear (a weak point on this engine), I won't know until I get some Blackstone reports this year.

I will report back. Since most dealers are selling this, I will use the oil and let objective oil analysis help decide whether I will keep using this or switch.

Spec sheets from Castrol -

Castrol EDGE Professional TWS 10w60 Spec

Castrol TWS Motorsport 10w60 Spec

Last edited by pal; 02-01-2013 at 11:19 PM.
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      02-02-2013, 12:44 AM   #10
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A bit more info regarding the properties of both oils:

Edge Professional TWS - http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/Fu...E-8HMJF5_0.pdf

TWS Motorsport - http://www.aral.de/assets/bp_interne...rsport_TDS.pdf
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      02-02-2013, 10:12 AM   #11
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With a little research, it appears that Red Line 10W-60 more closely matches TWS Motorsport oil than Edge. It has a Viscosity index of 182 and slightly higher viscosities at 40C and 100C.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?product=11704

Too bad they fail to mention that it is recommended for Z3M/Z4M's (however they get every other S54 application).

Maybe Redline is worth trying out.
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      02-02-2013, 10:55 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bignosejim View Post
With a little research, it appears that Red Line 10W-60 more closely matches TWS Motorsport oil than Edge. It has a Viscosity index of 182 and slightly higher viscosities at 40C and 100C.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?product=11704

Too bad they fail to mention that it is recommended for Z3M/Z4M's (however they get every other S54 application).

Maybe Redline is worth trying out.
From a cold climate perspective (something I have to be very careful of), the dynamic viscocity of Redline 10w60 is much higher at -25°C than TWS Motorsport (6500mPa.s vs 4800mPa.s).
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      02-02-2013, 11:21 AM   #13
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Compare the HTHS of Redline to TWS!
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      02-02-2013, 11:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bignosejim View Post
Too bad they fail to mention that it is recommended for Z3M/Z4M's (however they get every other S54 application).

Maybe Redline is worth trying out.
Shhh
the Z4M is not a legitimate M car, remember??
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      02-02-2013, 12:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyfrc View Post
Compare the HTHS of Redline to TWS!
6.7 vs 5.2 mPA.s? http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf%5C...63_2011_10.pdf

TWS has always been at the low end of the "60" weight scale. Redline is definitely more viscous across the range, but also will have lower flow rates and potentially higher temperatures and pressures due to it's properties. The question is, is 5.2 mPa.s good enough under high stress levels?
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      02-02-2013, 12:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pal View Post
On a race track in the summer, I have some doubts as oil temps are in the 230-240°F range and the new oil will have lower viscosity. Whether that increases bearing wear (a weak point on this engine), I won't know until I get some Blackstone reports this year.
The oil will very likely have a slightly lower viscosity, but viscosity alone is not a complete indication of wear protection. Film strength of an oil is not related to viscosity. ZDDP concentrations could be higher in the new EDGE product, an anti-wear additive. Another thing to consider is that the new formula may provide better long-term stability.

The upgrade in API specification indicates that this is a better performing product overall.
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      02-02-2013, 12:27 PM   #17
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Does anyone have opinions on Liqui Moly Race Tech GT1 oil - 10W-60?
(bavauto doesn't have any links I can copy here, but it's easy to find).
From what I researched, a lot of M5 guys tried it out and seem to have "approved" it.
It also sounds like that's what BMW uses in EU?
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      02-02-2013, 01:19 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerobod View Post
6.7 vs 5.2 mPA.s? http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf%5C...63_2011_10.pdf

TWS has always been at the low end of the "60" weight scale. Redline is definitely more viscous across the range, but also will have lower flow rates and potentially higher temperatures and pressures due to it's properties. The question is, is 5.2 mPa.s good enough under high stress levels?
In an undersquare(immense rod bearing stress) engine design that revs to 8K rpm I want the highest HTHS and ZDDP product available....
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      02-02-2013, 01:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bignosejim View Post
With a little research, it appears that Red Line 10W-60 more closely matches TWS Motorsport oil than Edge. It has a Viscosity index of 182 and slightly higher viscosities at 40C and 100C.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?product=11704

Too bad they fail to mention that it is recommended for Z3M/Z4M's (however they get every other S54 application).

Maybe Redline is worth trying out.
I think I'll give it a go this year.
I do sample testing, so it will be interesting to see the results next year.
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      02-02-2013, 01:46 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyfrc View Post
In an undersquare(immense rod bearing stress) engine design that revs to 8K rpm I want the highest HTHS and ZDDP product available....
If that is the case, then you probably want to look at a 20w70 oil from Penrite, or one of the speciality blenders.
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      02-02-2013, 02:47 PM   #21
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TMS uses Motul in the GT cars... Not sure on the grade; asked Will during the live blog at Daytona last Saturday and he either didn't know or wouldn't reveal it...

http://www.motul.com/ca/en-US/produc...iscosity%5D=37
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      02-02-2013, 03:58 PM   #22
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Here is the bit of a quandary in increasing the oil viscocity such that the oil has a higher HTHS:

The dynamic viscocity (DV) and kinematic viscocity (KV) are generally related in Newtonian fluids (such as oil) by the formula DV = KV x SG, where SG is the specific gravity of the fluid.

The KV is measured and quoted as a flow rate through a standardised capillary tube between an upper and lower fluid reservoir in a calibrated apparatus. This means that a quoted DV at 150°C for one oil that is 25% more viscous than another oil would cause 25% more resistance to flow at a given temperature.

At high RPMs on an engine that is warmed up, you want to be at the maximum oil pressure (on the S54 this is regulated to 4.0 bar). What this means is that because the oil is incompressible and the design engineers will expect maximum oil pressure to be reached before maximum revs with the designated oil, a 25% more viscous oil will have 25% less flow when in the expected oil pressure relief valve bypass mode at maximum revs.

25% less oil flow will lead to less cooling and hotter running in areas of the engine such as the underside of the pistons. The lower flow through the whole of the oiling system may mean cooler oil at the oil cooler (the oil spends more time being cooled due to lower flow rate), but overall the effect will be a change in temperature gradients, with the hotter parts getting hotter and the cooler parts getting cooler. The big-ends may run cooler, but the little-ends (wrist pins) may run hotter to the extent that the thicker oil may run a lot thinner there, thereby changing both the flow and temperature gradients further. Depending where the temperature sensor is and the overall change in flow and temperature characteristics, the oil gauge could indicate the engine is running cooler or hotter or the same.

The only certainty is that the engine oiling characteristics will be different than the design engineers originally measured.
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